The Disney 52 Animated Challenge: Year-Long Activity - NOW PLAYING: Wreck-It Ralph AND Frozen

Discussion in 'DPF Game Room' started by MerlinEmrys, Dec 15, 2017.

  1. coblj003

    coblj003 DPF Charter Member DPF Correspondent

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    A bit behind the scenes as it's the end of the discussion time.
     
  2. unibear

    unibear DPF Charter Member DPF Charter Member

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    Even though I love Disney cats, I had never seen this movie before! In the interest of full disclosure, I will also say that I have never read “Oliver Twist” (the book on which this movie is based) either.

    1. and 8. My overall impression of the movie… Several things:

    It’s clear to me that the writers/animators were trying to capitalize on the current celebrities and trends happening in the 1980s, but some of the songs (especially Huey Lewis’s “Once Upon a Time in New York City” and Billy Joel’s “Why Should I Worry?”) feel incredibly dated, including the choreographed dancing scenes with the dogs that just scream 1980s music videos. Also, Georgette doing aerobics to a Jane Fonda tape! To quote a line from one of favorite shows: “It’s trying way to hard to be hip, which means it’s five minutes away from being five minutes ago.” And now it is…

    I have to say that I don’t know how faithful this adaptation is to the original book, and so many of the issues I have with the way the movie tends to feel like a copy of other Disney films may simply be that the book and these movies are similar. Anyway, here goes…
    • Many homages to “Aristocats”, especially in the “Good Company” montage where Jenny and Oliver really start to bond. I’m thinking of Oliver helping Jenny play the piano and batting at the hat of the horseman on the carriage. And, at least for Tito, his voice matches the stereotypical racial accent for Mexicans reminiscent of the “Lady and the Tramp” dogs and the “Aristocats” cat band members. To be fair, they used Cheech Marin for the voice of Tito, and his career (of his own building?) has been based on characters with this kind of accent.
    • Roscoe & DeSoto feel very familiar to Nero & Brutus from “The Rescuers”, Felicity from “Great Mouse Detective” and Flotsam & Jetsam from the upcoming “Little Mermaid”. See #2 below.
    • Dodger seems to be yet another scoundrel (like Tramp and O’Malley) with a heart of gold. See #4 below.

    I love Disney kitties, but I really wasn’t feeling this movie at the start. First off, what kind of owner would abandon a single kitten in a box in the rain? Way too melodramatic, and off-putting. Also, why does Dodger have to be so mean to Oliver? Oliver helped him, why not give him a sausage or two or bring him along to join the group since he proved so helpful. But once Oliver and Jenny met, I really liked the movie and the turn it took (away from the dog pack and toward a real home for Oliver). More to follow in #7.


    2. You’d think I’d choose Oliver to analyze since he’s a kitty, but I didn’t have a lot to say about him, much as I like him. So I chose Roscoe & DeSoto. As I mentioned above, they feel similar to previous Disney villain sidekicks. Disney does seem to love the trope of the villain’s pet being a ruthless and dangerous animal for which the villain has a soft spot. I will say that at least Sikes is well aware that his pets are dangerous and uses that to his advantage.

    I noticed the parallelism of the intimidation of Fagin by Sikes and the intimidation of the dog pack by Roscoe & DeSoto. But I wondered if they were in this movie because there are parallel characters in the book—are there orphans who worked with Sikes against Fagin and his orphans? I don’t know!

    I loved that Oliver scratched DeSoto’s nose! What I didn’t like was that, unlike “The Rescuers” and “Great Mouse Detective”, these pets were killed in the movie—DeSoto was electrocuted pretty spectacularly when he hit the rails of the train and presumably Roscoe died with Sikes when his car was hit by the train. I know Disney kills a lot of their princess/fantasy villains, but this was the first (?) human villain killed. This is in stark contrast to the survival of Cruella DeVil and Madam Medusa.


    4. The song I chose was “Why Should I Worry?” I think the scene is intended to introduce the character of Dodger as a scoundrel who has the run of his city and is in control of his life and surroundings. This song is very much in the style of “He’s a Tramp” which explains Tramp and his life choices, and “O’Malley the Alley Cat” which explains O’Malley and his life choices. These three characters have a lot in common: they’re scoundrels living on the streets, with no owners (although I guess Dodger has Fagin), enjoying the life that they have, showing initial contempt for a pet lost from a well-to-do family (although O’Malley contempt is short-lived) only to have a change of heart and then working to help the lost pet get back to the home from which they were lost/stolen.

    As I said above, this song feels rather dated as a 1980s hit. I will say, when it was played again at the end as a reprise, I liked it a whole lot more and found it to be kind of catchy.


    6. and 7. The line I chose to analyze was from Oliver: “I was happy there. Why did you guys take me away?” From my perspective, the goal of the movie is all about trying to find a family, someplace you belong. This also seems to be a major goal of the book (or at least the musical: “Consider yourself at home, consider yourself one of the family.”)

    The movie starts out with Oliver and his siblings being adopted out, and all of them finding a home except Oliver. Oliver is left alone, and meets Dodger as he is trying to find his place in the world. Fagin and the dog pack adopt Oliver and he’s one of them. Then he accidently ends up getting caught in the limo with Jenny and finds a new home and becomes part of her family. The dog pack fight to save Oliver because he’s part of their family, but when they talk to Oliver they realize that he was home with Jenny and that they needed to save and reunite Jenny and Oliver.

    At first, I thought the final scene implied that Jenny adopted Oliver and the whole dog pack and I was thinking that was a bit unrealistic—her parents let her have a cat, but I couldn’t imagine they’d also let her have six or seven dogs. Then we find out that Jenny adopted Oliver and that Fagin still had the dog pack and they were just visiting for Jenny’s birthday. Still, a very happy ending because all of the pets have owners and seem to be loved by them (I’m not sure Fagin in the book really loved the orphans rather than just using them, but as I said I haven’t read the book…).


    9. I don’t know if this scene is particularly iconic or representative of the film for others, but when I saw Jenny playing the piano and Oliver sitting with her I melted. That’s when I felt like Jenny and Oliver were a family, and getting Oliver a family was the major intent of the movie in my eyes.

    [​IMG]


    10. I picked this pin (127105) because I just love that this pin captures the love between Jenny and Oliver and the sense of family.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2018
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  3. timeerkat

    timeerkat Your Friend Who Likes To Play

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    Ug, such a long day! I just finished watching and jotting down notes, but need to get some semblance of sleep or my write up will make zero sense. Will do my write up when I wake up.
     
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  4. Meritre

    Meritre Active Member

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    Once more, an analyze. I felt that I didn't have anything interesting to say, only obvious things. It's still too long so I can post it in two parts. Part 1:


    1. What is your overall impression of the film? Some possible talking points include: what you did or did not like about it; what about the film has stuck with you; what did you find different on this viewing; how would modern audiences respond to this (for the older films)… The list goes on. Hahah!
    I haven’t seen this movie either (surprise, surprise) But I had the book, I mean the Disney book of Oliver and Company. A big hardcover book with pictures on every page and a little text telling what’s happening. (Georgette was prettier in these pictures) I wanted it as a child because it had a cat and I loved cats, especially cute kitties. (I used to copy the pictures of Oliver and made paper doll Olivers) So although I haven’t seen it, the film was pure nostalgy for me. I watched this one with hun dub, the first hun dub, as they made a second one not only with new voice actors but with a completely new translation. I wasn’t fond of the new dub so I searched for the old one and found it quite quickly. I was a bit surprised how deep Ritas voice is. (In the new dub, Jasmine is doing the singing for Rita – yes, Jasmine and Rita share the voiceactress, although she only did the singing part for Jas) I haven’t read the book but I’ve seen the musical a few years ago and I feel there are a lot of changes, the whole story is somewhat ’warmer’. I can’t really explain it better. I enjoyed it very much since I still love cute kitties. (But as a child, Rita was my favourite) I thinking the core of the film, finding a place you belong is something that’s important even today.


    2. Choose one specific character to analyze. You can explore how a character acts, what they say, how they dress, etc. to explain what they may represent or their function and meaning in the narrative. Try to avoid obvious "plot" stuff (ex: the Evil Queen is a villain, so her purpose is to be bad...), but explore unique and specific elements about the character (ex: the EQ is surrounded by images of peacocks, further suggesting her obsession with vanity). You may also use these elements to explain why you connected or disconnected from the character.
    Oliver acts as a typical young child, he plays as long as there is someone to play with, he copies the adults around him and learns things this way, is very trusting and likes comfort and nice food. But what Jenny made for him would have been more suitable for a human. There was something with chocolate in it – chocolate is actually not good for cats. He is more lika human than a cat in his personality – I’ve never seen a cat that would bear so much hugging and picking up and being so freiandly after such rough experiences on New Yorks streets
    He is also a red kitty – and he quickly becomes the only red among his siblings. I thought first he was the only one but the kitten that’s adopted first has a similar color. Olivers color stands out nevertheless, here is a picture Iremembered and thought he was the only really colorful kitty:

    [​IMG]

    His color still means he stands out and he’ll be the one we follow through the story. Red is also the color of blood and so a symbol of life – meaning that no matter what, Oliver will survive.


    3. Choose one specific scene or sequence to analyze—tell me what response is it trying to evoke from the viewer and how does it go about getting that response? Your analysis could include the scene’s use of color, action, camera angles, music, character development, setting, backdrop, style, etc. If you can justify it with evidence from the scene, then it’s an analysis!
    I choose the moment when Fagin arriveds at Sykes’ – it’s a darks scary place just as a villains lair should be, the only colorful things are Fagin and Dodger while they use thre elevator, even the yellow light seems somewhat greyish and faded. Sykes looks through a camera at Fagin and the outside world – the pictures are grey, he has no color, no real happyness in his life. He smokes and sits in the shadow – typical fo villains. (They get all the bad habits, the others aren’t real smokers) He also uses his light to threaten Fagin – he brings the money or he’ll die.
    Also Dodger is in the light while the two dobbermans are in the shadow, showing on whose side they are.
    They are talking abut green pieces of paper with numbers – money. Oliver is the opposite color – red. He’s just the opposite of the money hunting cold-heartedness – a little bundle of love.
    They use colors a lot in the whole movie – colorful places are generally happy and rich places, gray and dark places are dangerous and should be avoided. The home of the dog gang is somewhere between the two – darkish, because it’s not that comfortable, there is almost nothing to eat and Fagin is in trouble. Also Oliver doesn’t wish to stay there after he met Jenny and fpund a more colorful place to stay at. But this dog home is not completely gloomy it has some colors altough most of those colors are earthy colors, greens and browns but the dogs are fairly happy there.


    4. Choose one song to analyze—tell me what response is it trying to evoke from the viewer and how does it go about getting that response? What purpose does this song have in the film and does it succeed in that purpose?
    I’m going with the first song, Once Upon A Time In New York City. After all, it opens the whole movie and sets up the mood. It presents the place and we get to see Oliver too. The song actually tries to encourage poor Oliver, left alone, cold and wet and scared as he is. Don’t lose hope, in short. It sets the story into motion and wins the sympathy of the viewer for out little hero and I think fulfils its purpose beautifully.
    Now I’m diving into the hun versions. In the first version, it is sung by a well-known rock singer, who also played roles like Jean Valjean from Les Miserables. His voice fits the setting perfectly for me, just like I’d imagine New Yorks voice going by the description and I had the same just right feeling with the English version of the song (found it on Youtube :) ). It was a perfect opening for the movie. Yes I’m partial. :) I also looked at how close it is to the original text. The translator managed to keep all the New York City parts – I mean, when in the original English song New York City is sung, at the exact same place New York City is sung in the first Hungarian version and I think that’s fascinating. They also loved using opposites, a typical example: “So Oliver, don't be shy” became So Oliver be brave.
    The newer version is very modern – it sounds somehow more modern and the lyrics is trying to be more modern, too, by using ’cool’ words and phrases. It’s possibly just me but I don’t like that. The new translation sometimes sticks closer to the original sometimes it completely wonders off compared to the oldar one.The performer is okay but nothing special. I like the older one so much better! As I didn’t watch the movie as a child it can’t be because it’s the version I listened to as a child – although I am partial to the singer. I’m really picky. :)


    5. Choose one specific symbol in the film to analyze. A symbol is typically something inanimate, an object, rather than a character. So don’t say “Brer Bear represents dumb people,” as that’s more of a character analysis than a symbol. Rather, think about specific objects (jewelry, clothing, houses, food, weapons, etc.) What does this symbol mean and how does that meaning impact the film?
    I could only think of the collar and the tag with his name and adress as a symbol. The tag’s yellow – gold and metal, it stands for wealth and high status. But not happiness – the dobbermans had them, too but I don’t think they were as happy as the dog gang, who had no collar at all.
    Fagin also only saw money in it.
    The feeding bowl also symbolises status – it has Olivers name, is made of metal and the gang dogs doesn’t have one, just like with the collar and tag. Georgette has both as she is a classy lady.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
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  5. Meritre

    Meritre Active Member

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    Part 2:

    6. Choose a single line of dialog that you find to be the most significant/impactful line in the film and why. You can be a little loose with the “single line” bit, but let’s not go for Maleficent’s entire monologue to Philip... Rather, something like Stitch’s “This is my family. I found it all on my own. It’s little, and broken, but still good. Yeah – still good.” (brb weeping).
    This is always a very tough question. I choose this one:

    “Look, I even brought this to get him back – You brought a piggy bank? – It’s all I have.”

    I think this shows perfectly, how much Jenny loves Oliver, willing to give upp all the money she has. Although she is a child of rich parents, she’s really sensible and I think she knows the worth of money. (Unlike many other rich children.)She is still willing to give it up for a little stray kitty. A kitty she loves. It makes Oliver to feel at home at her place even more. It means there is indeed a place for Oliver.
    From the point of view of an adult the whole thing looks ridiculous. A piggybank as ransome money? Holding a cat for ransom? Giving up all the money youe have for a cat? An adult would think that very odd. (Fagin thought so, too) But Jenny is still a child although reasonable, still a child. She thinks Oliver is worth it, although she knows it can be dangerous. It is a good example how tha love for another can make us stronger.


    7. What is this film’s overall goal? Is it to teach a specific lesson (what is it) or get an emotional response (such as)? Or both? And how well or poorly does the film succeed in that goal? Be specific!
    I think it shows the importance of a family and having a place to belong. It also shows that there can be more than one such places – I’m pretty sure Oliver would have been all right growing up with the dog gang – and that those can be connected, family and friends, the dogs are somewhat both for Oliver even if they could not offer as much comfort as Jenny and they were teaching him the hard way – collecting experience by going through things himself. (Like cars are dangerous but can be used as a way to travel quickly)


    8. What connections or progressions do you see in this film to past films? Example: how does Sleeping Beauty progress (or digress?) the princess archetype built in Cinderella? Be specific! Also, consider what use there is in returning to or re-imagining those elements?
    I think this movie is an important link between previous movies and movies coming ater it. It draws a lot from the older ones and prepares the place for the newer ones.
    Georgette getting ready for the day and birds helping her – definitely from Cinderella. :) But there was definitely something in her manners (especially when the dogs come to fetch Oliver) that was familiar I just don’t know where I’ve heard and seen it.
    Oliver and the dog gang definitely draws a lot from Aristocats, Lady and the Tramp, maybe even 101 Dalmatians (I thought I saw Peg and Pongo somewhere at the beginning, and I read that Rattigan is supposed to have a cameo, too, as part of Georgettes photo collection) Dodgers design is quite similar to Tramp’s and they have similar personalities, too.
    Another thing I noticed that Oliver is closer in design to Simba and the other lions than previous cats, like Duchess and her family probably because of his muzzle and eyes. The color helps, too. I see him as some sort of prefiguration for Simba. Robbed of old home (if you can call that paperbox a home – but in the song, it is called home), finding a new one. While it fills out the whole story about Oliver for Simba it is only a small part of the story.
    Looking for a place you feel like you belong connect this movie to Hercules as well.


    9. What is the iconic shot of the film? What single frame of animation do you find to be the most memorable and why? Post it! You can check out this link to find some great screencaps to help!
    This one was really hard. I thought about what did I remember best from reading that Disney Oliver book I mentioned in my first answer and I came to the conclusion that it’s Fagin with all the dogs and Oliver. So I choose this shot:
    [​IMG]


    10. What single pin do you think best represents this film for you? Why? Give us the pin number and post a picture!
    I wanted a pin with Oliver and the dogs (Well, Oliver and Company :D)and finally choose this one:
    Pin 78635 Disney Store Europe - Oliver & Co (Yellow Cab)
    [​IMG]



    Stray thoughts: I’m a bit sad that the dobbermans are the bad guys as usual, we owned one and he was a very tame and clever fellow. And elegant. Not at all like he should have beenjudging by the breeds reputation. :) But it’s also a nice move, since together with Georgette they show that being purebred is not everything. Than again, it’s up to them to prove what they are. :)

    I loved Tito singing from My fair Lady and Snow White :D
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2018
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  6. pincrazy

    pincrazy Well-Known Member

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    Plumbing is finally back, so watching film now and will do questions soon after. :stitch:
     
  7. pincrazy

    pincrazy Well-Known Member

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    1) Well, not a classic or I would have remembered it. Certainly an effort to update the Disney image in being relatable, but also dates itself in an era. Opens with the New York City skyline which is melancholy in itself with the World Trade Towers part of it. The artwork seems to be similar to comic book, but seems to change to the standard. Overall the movie is ok, but not one that would be watched a lot, or the songs sumg, although the voices were an interesting group of talent.
    3) The scene of Oliver cuddling up with Dodger to sleep was endearing, it's the confirmation that Dodger is his buddy, dogs and cats can be acceptable friends although always assumed as enemies.
    5) The symbol I picked is rather translucent and not sure if it's a symbol, but I'm picking accents/dialog. It seems to relate and set up to the character's status/class//education /ethnicity and personality, somewhat stereotyped but probably meant to make the characters relatable.
    7) It's overall goal was probably to branchout and experiment with remaking a classic musical animation since Oliver was a big hit in the 60s both as a play and film. There didn't seem to be a message other than there's a family/love/support for everyone.
    10) Best pin #78635
    TTFN till next week, and another 5:stitch:
     
  8. timeerkat

    timeerkat Your Friend Who Likes To Play

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    1. I have a nostalgic fondness for this film. It came out when I was five, and along with the other 80's/90's films was a large part of my childhood. In addition, I did drama in high school and college, and Oliver was the first show I was ever in.

    It had all of the standard group dynamic archetypes/dog species stereotypes. They serve a purpose, though I feel that the film leans a bit too heavily on them at times to teh detriment of strong storytelling. There's the charismatic "cool guy" leader (Jack Russell Terrier, which I actually just learned when researching for this write-up; I always thought he was a mutt), the dumb goofy big guy (Great Dane), the wisecracking sidekick (Chihuahua, and OF COURSE they gave the Chihuahua a Mexican accent), the nitpicky nerd (English Bulldog, and again of course the English Bulldog has to have a British accent), the bullies (Dobermans - Just once I'd love to see a Doberman in a Disney movie NOT be the bad guy), the pampered prissy girl (Poodle), and the spunky girl who can get rough and tumble with the boys (Saluki).

    I agree that the film does feel dated. The fashion, music, etc. just screams 1980's. Without a shot stating the place and year (like Great Mouse Detective did), it seems more like they were trying to create a contemporary movie rather than a movie set in a specific time and place. The problem with that is as fashion and music choices change, contemporary works can feel outdated.

    GEEEZ, the villain deaths. I think this movie has some of the most brutal deaths across the Disney canon. Roscoe and Desoto get electrocuted on the railroad tracks and Sykes gets hit by a train. DANG Disney!

    2. I chose Sykes. He is an obvious parallel to Bill Sikes in Oliver, though he has much more control over Fagin in this film than he does in the original work. Like Sikes, Sykes has no redeeming qualities that are shown. He is a vicious loan shark and is not above extortion, kidnapping, or murder. To him, anything is fair game as long as he gets what he wants, and seems to get a thrill from the power he holds over those with little to no power to begin with. (Though unlike his namesake, at least we don't see him beat his girlfriend to death, so...yay Disney Sykes?)

    I think that Sykes is a very underdeveloped character, especially compared to other villains from this time period. All we really know about his is that he gave Fagin money and wants it back, and uses Roscoe and Desoto as intimidation. No real backstory, no character development, no nuance to anything he does. It's just heavy-handed "I gave you money, give me back my money or you're a dead man."

    Because of his lack of any sort of redeeming quality, he's one of my least favorite villains, and I feel really disconnected to him.


    4. Why Should I Worry highlights several things. It demonstrate's Dodger's carefree attitude and way of thinking. It also shows off his supreme confidence - he never hesitates in any of his actions.

    It is also an effective example of how the characters interact with the City itself. Dodger is old hat and knows New York City inside and out. He gracefully moves throughout it, jumping on cars, construction equipment, and even pianos. He knows the timing of the City and uses it to his advantage. Meanwhile, Oliver is new. He barely manages to keep up with Dodger, and keeps slipping and making a mess of things. He isn't tuned into the City yet.


    7. One of the elements the movie touches on is the differences in class. There are two classes prominently shown in the film - lower class (Fagin and the street dogs) and upper class (Sykes, Jenny, Winston, and Georgette). Oliver straddles both. He starts lower class, as a stray that no one wants, even for free. After Jenny finds him and takes him in, he moves to upper class, though he still has ties to his lower class life.

    The problems of the upper class and lower class are also touched on. The street dogs worry about hunger and only eat what they can scrounge up, whereas Jenny makes a meal for Oliver that wastes lots of food and doesn't bat an eye; Winston is only worried about the mess it made and not about the wasted money or food itself. The dogs all band together to help Fagin get out of his literal life or death debt to Sykes, whereas Jenny's main problem is loneliness at her parents being away.

    The treatment by the upper class of the lower class is contrasted between Jenny and Sykes. Sykes looks down on Fagin. He uses his lower class status as leverage to wield power over him - Sykes gave him money, and now Fagin owes him his life. Jenny, on the other hand, shows kindness to Oliver, Fagin, and the dogs. She takes Oliver in immediately when she sees him in need, and invites everyone over to her birthday at the end. She accepts their gifts graciously.

    This contract between the villain's classism and the tells me that one of the goals of the movie is to teach us to have compassion for those less fortunate.

    Note - Georgette is on the fence for me; her contempt for Oliver comes more from his invading her space and taking attention away from her rather than him being a stray, and she would have acted the same way if Oliver was a pedigreed show cat. Also, I can't tell if her initial disgust with Tito is from him being a stray or just her not liking his personality.


    10. I love the relationship between Jenny and Oliver, and her immediate love for him. The heroine profile pin shows this love perfectly.

    [​IMG]
    Pin# 127105 - WDI - Disney Heroines Series - Jenny


    Random Thoughts

    ~ I'm amused at Roscoe and Desoto's names. They are named after streets in the San Fernando Valley, and the two streets actually intersect not too far from where I work. Before I moved I used to pass through that intersection every day to and from work and it made me chuckle. Their PTD is the only non-Rita pin from Oliver and Company in my collection. I've been meaning to bring it to this intersection to get a photo with the street signs, but keep forgetting to take it to work with me.

    [​IMG]


    ~ I was debating using the "If this is torture, chain me to the wall!" as my quote but I ultimately didn't as it wasn't really an impactful line for the film. But that's the first line I think of when I think of this movie. The movie came out in theaters when I was in kindergarten/first grade, and I remember lots of my friends who had seen the movie back then quoting this line endlessly.

    ~ There is a small detail I noticed on this viewing that I've missed before. The first time we see Sykes, he's threatening Fagin down at the docks, and Fagin clings to the left rear view mirror of the car. It breaks off and falls down into the water.

    [​IMG]

    The next time we see Sykes and Fagin together, Fagin is playing with a model of Sykes' car and he breaks of the left rearview mirror on the model car, mirroring what happened earlier.

    [​IMG]

    ~ AAAH, what happened to her neck ruff?

    [​IMG]

    ~ HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. MerlinEmrys

    MerlinEmrys Hicitus Pinicus!

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    1. Overall Impression:
    I hadn’t seen the film in a while, but it’s never really been a favorite. And sadly, this viewing didn’t change that. While it was good, and I enjoyed it well enough, there just wasn’t a lot of “umph” for me. It was very sweet, the characters were fun, but everything just felt sort of vanilla. There were some points that felt like a set up or a testing ground for future characters, so I can see where that’s important. But this one just didn’t do a whole lot for me.

    Overall, I’d call this one a “cinnamon roll” movie, with Oliver as its poster child ;P


    2. Character Analysis / 4. Song Analysis:
    First off, I’m gonna be that guy. I don’t like Dodger! There, I said it! I think he’s pompous, and him overblowing the story of the sausages, and then trying to change the subject just didn’t do it for me. I think I know too many real people like that for me to actually like him. XD

    But more to the point of an analysis, Georgette was a delightful character here, if a bit of a one-trick-pony. Her vanity goes so much farther than just a play on her dog breed (something every dog movie does and it drives me nuts…). For one, during “Perfect Isn’t Easy”, she strikes a pose (a la “Vogue”) at every available opportunity with such utter drama to add the extra “UH!” when she looks to the camera—very meta considering she is actually on display for the viewer in a film...

    What’s even more fun, though, is that she plays with the Princess stereotype of having a bird accompaniment:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Of course, she’s the total opposite of an actual Disney Princess, so this feeds into her character that she must put on a show/face rather than reveal her actual demeanor. We see this best when she confronts Oliver in the kitchen: from “Ooooh, aren’t you a clever kitty!” to “Everything from the doorknobs down is MINE!!”.

    And she doesn’t even actually bark! She says “bark bark bark!” XD It’s such a small thing to do, but is a perfect addition to her character. Barking is just so below her ;P


    6. Dialog Analysis / 7. Overall Goal:
    While the message for the film is pretty standard, find your family/where you belong, there are certain points of the film that accomplish that message more subtly than others. One that stood out was Dodger’s comment early on: “This city’s got a beat, and you gotta hook into it. And once you get the beat, you can do anything!” More than just a play on the “rhythm” of the city (which gets acted out in the characters’ bouncing movements and the music), the idea that everything has a rhythm and tapping into it gives you the ability to do whatever you want (namely, fit in) is what’s at the core of the film. Oliver and Jenny obviously jived well—they each needed each other. You could say they had the same “beat” or “vibration”. Tito and Georgette, on the other hand, did not.

    So I think the point of this film is to suggest that there’s someplace/someone out there for everybody. You just need to feel out the beat and find what you can tap into.


    8. Connections:
    Very quickly. I found Oliver to be a meeker prototype for Simba. Their mannerisms were similar (or perhaps there’s only so many ways to animate a cat) and the had the same sort of timbre to their attitude—though Simba obviously turns up the machismo.

    In a similar way, I thought Sykes was a proto-Clayton. They had a similar brand of ruthlessness, and their design was similar in some spots.


    9. Iconic Shot:
    I think one of the most memorable aspects of the film is the music, and the idea that NYC has this unique beat to tap into. So I’ll go with this scene of the gang being in perfect sync with that beat:

    [​IMG]


    10. Representative Pin:
    There sadly wasn’t a whole lot to choose from! And even though this is a re-used concept from Pin 78635, I like the background color added to it:

    Pin 90462 DSF - Beloved Tales - Oliver and Company
    [​IMG]

    A nice solid shot of everyone plus plenty of the NYC vibe!


    Stray Thoughts:

    *How is Oliver the last cat chosen…. Totally unbelievable… XD

    *Sickest burn in all of Disney canon:
    [​IMG]

    *Fagin is such a delight, and Dom DeLuise as the voice is just perfect. (He’ll always be Itchy and Tiger first, but he was a good fit for this character!)

    * “Streets of Gold” is a very underrated song…

    *What the actual heck was wrong with Disney and this pin series!? How did they mess it up so bad?

    Pin 16343 Magical Musical Moments - Perfect Isn't Easy (Dangle)
    [​IMG]
     
  10. coblj003

    coblj003 DPF Charter Member DPF Correspondent

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    Yay, we are finally at the film that marks the end of the Disney Dark Ages. Oliver and Company is another adaptation from the public domain library, but with a bit of an anamorphic modern twist(pun intended).
    [​IMG]
    1. Overall Impression.
    Like most Disney adaptations from the public Domain, this film is based off a Charles Dickens novel Oliver Twist(as well as several successful screen and stage adaptations), orphan boy who escapes a harsh orphanage/workhouse and finds himself immersed in the street pickpocket gangs of early 19th century London.

    [​IMG] This film eschews this in a more modern setting of New York City, replacing the harsh childhood orphan boy with an abandon kitten finding its way through the city. The plot itself is lifted superficially from it's predecessor(boy joins gang, boy finds home, boy is taken back forcefully by gang, Sykes is killed, Boy is adopted) though most of its original intent and character fates are pretty Disneyfied with the gang vowing a bohemian way of life versus harsh incarceration/impending execution of Dodger and Fagin. In fact, Oliver Twist most iconic quote (Please Sir, May I have some more) is no where to be found in this film.

    As Oliver Twist has become known as a period piece of the early 19th century, Oliver and company has not aged as well in some regards as others have though it is slowly becoming defined as an 80's movie. The soundtrack is very distinct feel for that era and much of the fashion and technology(high top sneakers with boombox, haircuts, automobiles, etc,) support that as well. The prominent pre - 9/11 skyline of course does well to remind people that this takes place at least pre-millennium.
    [​IMG]
    The art direction that this film had was definitely interesting and well put together. Most of the animation was hand drawn/painted though they seemingly meshed well with what was computer animated(taxied, subway sequence, Brooklyn bridge). While Disney had a star studded cast to work with, it's biggest star was the setting of Manhattan, it seemed they spared no expense in showcasing famous landmarks of the big apple throughout the film.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    2. Character Analysis
    Fagin is one of those shady characters you can't help but sympathize with eventually. In the novel he is a Jewish gang leader of the pickpockets who is eventually sentenced to die; This is probably one of the few things they share as they both fear their impending demise. In this movie you realize that he is under the hold of a loan shark, an understanding of his desperation, dealing with stealing and swindling and even kidnapping a kitten for ransom. As he is off the hook in the end, he appears to continue on a bohemian life with his dogs whether or not this means continuing what he was doing.

    5. Symbolism,
    It's wierd when you consider how star studded an 80's cast this was(Don Deluise, Bette Middler, Cheech Marrin, Billy Joel, etc), many of which have continued to do well with their careers. Consider that this was primarily the and animal cast, Don's voice is played more as the simpleton, the animals showcasing very normal sounding, distinct, if accented voices. One stand out though was that a voice actor more known for his animal impersonations was the voice of Frank Welker, who actually voiced the mean food vendor at the beginning of the film. So you use the human actors to voice animals and a regular animal sound actor to voice humans?

    9. Iconic Scene
    [​IMG]
    This scene of the gang walking Times Square, It's very similar to the Beatle's Abbey Road poster. Notice the product placement of CocaCola, one of Disney's sponsors at the time. It's said that Disney didn't actually charge for any of the product placements and included it for realism.

    10. Unique pin.
    Pin 8458 100 Years of Magic - Oliver and Company.
    [​IMG]
    As Manhattan is showcased prominently throughout the pin, I thought this was very representative of it's status throughout the film. This pin is unique in that it features the WTCin the background(similar pins cut it out). What's wierd is that it was released a few months after 9/11 making me think that it was already well into development/production.



    Random thoughts


    The kittens at the beginning all have a distinct coloring, and even though they don't match one hundred percent they seem to represent a past Disney cat: Bagheera, Thomas O'Malley, Duchess, Si&Am, Lucifer, and Figaro...
    [​IMG]
    There are a multitude of Dog Cameos in the 2nd Number ranging from The dogs from lady and the tramp to Pongo...

    Georgette fluff's her torso during her number in away to accentuate suggestive assets that are anotomically lower and more spread out on a dog...

    I just love the Background pics of NYC, much of it could be stock art/paintings...
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2018
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  11. MerlinEmrys

    MerlinEmrys Hicitus Pinicus!

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    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    The Little Mermaid (1989) AND BONUS The Rescuers Down Under

    Monday is our "wrap-up" discussion on Oliver and Company. So you're welcome to respond to other analyses throughout the day.

    However, you may not post any more full analyses for Oliver and Company to count for completion toward the 52 Challenge. No late homework. ;P

    Also, we have a Bonus Film this week!. Generally, the conversation will lean on the primary film (The Little Mermaid), so if you can only watch one, go for that one. But you can watch both and do a separate analysis for each and earn two "points" toward your 52 Challenge! :)

    ~Merlin
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2018
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  12. coblj003

    coblj003 DPF Charter Member DPF Correspondent

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    Of course I'll be on vacation so hopefully I'll finish this asap...
     
  13. Meritre

    Meritre Active Member

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    I couldn't agree more!
    I love bits of information like this :)
    I made the mistake of reading your analyze before I did mine and couldn't get this quote out of my head. This one just felt so right, summing up thewhole plot. :) Great choice!
    Hmm you are right. Looks like I made a mistake in my writing. :)
    I wasn't really fond of him, either. And who'd eat sausages that were dragged around the streets of the whole city? I'm sure he could have done something about it and wrap all of them arund his neck.
    This picture remind me of Simba and Timon and Pumbaa walking over the log when Simba is growing up.


    Just noticed something in addition to my analyze: The singer who does Once Upon A Time In New York City (old dub) played tha Fagin character in the musical when I saw it on stage :D

    @coblj003, I'm so sorry I wanted to stay up for the chat but I was too tired in the end and fell asleep :(
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
  14. unibear

    unibear DPF Charter Member DPF Charter Member

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    I know, right?? When I saw Georgette singing this song, I thought "Hey! I thought Dodger and Oliver sang this one!" because of THIS pin.
     
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  15. caw caw rawr

    caw caw rawr Squirrel!

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    Random movie memory:

    Oliver and Company was one of my favorite movies as a kid and will always have a place in my heart. I loved it because I really didn't want to see the same movie my mom & sister did, (it was Twins with Schwarzenegger & DeVito, I remember) so they saw that one and my mom let me see this movie. All. By. My. Self! I felt so grown up! I was 8.

    Silly little connection, but it makes me smile. :)
     
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  16. pretty Omi

    pretty Omi Resident Smol Wolf

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    Yeah, this whole series of pins is just bizarre, with songs mismatched from who sang them, it's really odd!
     
  17. MerlinEmrys

    MerlinEmrys Hicitus Pinicus!

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    Someone should do a Fantasy Pin series redemption!

    Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk
     
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  18. coblj003

    coblj003 DPF Charter Member DPF Correspondent

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    Currently on the road to San Diego, I wasn't too bummed missing chat as I was busy packing. I didn't know about the name snafu for the pins but yeah, Oliver doesn't seem to get much love compared to films from the Renaissance; they(pin producers) either probably made a goof because it sounded good to them or they thought they were being clever jokesters.

    I forgot to include this in random thoughts, I think it's just the transition frame but it almost looks like Oliver is smoking a cigar...
    [​IMG]
     
  19. coblj003

    coblj003 DPF Charter Member DPF Correspondent

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    I fully support this, though even still I'm surprised that there isn't even a pin with the iconic Shot...
     
  20. timeerkat

    timeerkat Your Friend Who Likes To Play

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    (I owe a few more answers and want to add more to question 1; will add them in later tonight or tomorrow morning. Just wanted to get some work out of the way since I'll have a long, tiring day today.)

    Little Mermaid

    1. We've done it, everyone! We've made it to the Disney Renaissance! This is the first movie I remember going to the theater to see. While it's not my favorite Disney movie, I do have nostalgia for it. I've seen it so much that I pretty much know it by heart. We had the VHS when I was growing up and watched it constantly. But I haven't seen it for a few years, so it was nice to watch it fresh again. (And my roommates were home when I was watching, so we had a joint viewing/singalong party. :3 )

    The Little Mermaid is the first film since Sleeping Beauty to be based on a classic fairy tale, and the first since to feature a Disney Princess (Eilonwy was a princess but isn't recognized as an official one by Disney). It's also the start of Disney's great re-emergence as a powerhouse.

    Under The Sea is somewhat problematic. Overall it's a great, catchy song, but some of the fish are...questionable. The fluke (the "Duke of Soul") is based on Gene Chandler, and the Black Fish is referencing black soul singers. Both have overly exaggerated features that don't EXACTLY mirror typical black face, but come pretty close. It's not at the same level as the natives in Peter Pan, but I think that they could have been removed from the scene and it wouldn't have affected anything.


    5. The dinglehopper stands out to me.

    [​IMG]
    (Huh - it has four tines here but three tines once Ariel picks it up...)

    It is the first item from the human world that we see Ariel interact with. She is more fascinated by this than with any other item in the movie (except perhaps the statue, but that is a direct representation of Eric). It is her connection to the human world when she can't interact with it otherwise. Interestingly, her father also carries a larger version through the entire movie in the form of his trident. This shows the link between Ariel's world and the human world.

    Later on, when Ariel is in Eric's palace, she comes across another one. She is so proud that she knows what to do with it, but as she's brushing her hair, she notices everyone staring at her and places it back down, a bit embarrassed. She learns that the human world is different than she thought.

    (Also of note - the one that Ariel finds at the beginning is not perfect. One of the tines is bent down. This shows the damage and wear it went through to make its way to the bottom of the sea, but it also is somewhat of a parallel to Ariel herself - she is mostly like the other merpeople, but still different. Her dad thinks she's "damaged" because of this. But after awhile, he comes to appreciate this difference in her, just like how Ariel overlooks the bent tine on the fork.

    [​IMG]



    Random Thoughts

    ~ "I'm sixteen years old I'm not a child anymore!"

    OH Ariel. Oh, honey. Honey, no. It's funny that depending on how old you are when you watch this, you either wildly agree or wildly disagree with this statement. XD


    ~ How did Grimsby hide the statue from Eric for their entire trip to surprise it with him in the middle of the deck? And how did Flounder get it into Ariel's treasure cove? HOW YOU DO, STATUE?
     
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  21. Meritre

    Meritre Active Member

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    I won't even try this time to post it in one. It grows bigger and bigger with each analyze. So, part 1:
    There is slightly problematic part and because of that, I'll edit this post quite a bit so it looks the way I want it, if that's possible.
    Edit 1: It didn't recognise how I had edited it in word so I made a screenshot of the Word version and posted that pat as a picture. I'll post that lyrics on my blog, too, so when it's up there I'll add the link to this post. I'll post there the whole song, not only this first half :)

    Edit 2: Done. So if anybody is as mad as me and is interested in the whole translation and in some additional thoughts on the translation, it can be found here:
    world of dolls and other things: Sharing the magic of music - Under the sea

    1. What is your overall impression of the film? Some possible talking points include: what you did or did not like about it; what about the film has stuck with you; what did you find different on this viewing; how would modern audiences respond to this (for the older films)… The list goes on. Hahah!
    Finally a movie I’ve already seen. Several times. I watched it hun dubbesd but switched over to the English to clear some things or other. For example I always remembered that Grimsby is Erics father and now I know, it must be a translating mistake. In the Hungarian version, Eric calls Grimsby sometimes Grimsby, sometimes dad. I checked the English dub, Eric says both times Grimsby. It happens. :)
    This watch was mostly about thinking about how my views have changed. As a child I loved Ariel because she opposed her father and left them behind just like that. I didn’t think about reasons or anything, just doing what you’ve been told not to do won my sympathy. Now, I don’t really like that in Ariel and understand Triton and Sebastian much better. Then again, I felt so sorry for Ariel when the ship with Eric and Vanessa leaves and I do think it was wrong of Triton to destroy Ariels treasures.
    Ariels Hungarian voice is often described as alien-like but, likely because I grew up with this version, for me it is the perfect Ariel voice. (I’ve seen the voice actress live, she stars mostly in operettas, singing and turning a cartwheel at the same time and dancing and doing other acrobatic things – she sounds quite different, she was also more than twice as old as Ariel in the movie when she did Ariels voice.)
    It’s also interesting to see some newer elements in changing from one scene to another – Ariel becoming the picture in Ursulas kristall spehere (or whatever it is) that are the eyes of her henchmen or Vanessas glowing pendant becoming the sun in the next shot.

    2. Choose one specific character to analyze. You can explore how a character acts, what they say, how they dress, etc. to explain what they may represent or their function and meaning in the narrative. Try to avoid obvious "plot" stuff (ex: the Evil Queen is a villain, so her purpose is to be bad...), but explore unique and specific elements about the character (ex: the EQ is surrounded by images of peacocks, further suggesting her obsession with vanity). You may also use these elements to explain why you connected or disconnected from the character.
    I choose Sebastian, since he is the character I felt most connected to and he changes significantly during the movie.
    At the bottom of the sea mostly blue and green shades are used and it’s darker allthogether so his bright red color makes him visible everywhere. Up in the castle, everything is brighter so he blends in more colorvise – but he is actually at home in the sea where he can be spotted at once and blends in where he doesn’t really belong – that could mean that he feels at home where he stands out and likes success, for example successful concerts with music he composed.
    Red can stand both for life and death, both connected to blood. (A great example can be found in Andersens Little Mermaid: If she kills the prince and trickles his blood on her feet, she’ll be a mermaid again and will live while the prince dies. If she doesn’t, as she choose to do, she is the one who dies and the prince lives.)
    Sebastian actually means life for Ariel sometimes as he helps her getting to the surface after she is transformed into a human and helping her reach her goal and calling King Triton to save her.
    His red color is quite tipical for a crab. In my language we even use it as crabred, mostly referring to people for example when they were too much in the sun and then they are crabred. :)
    He is the character who – along King Triton – learns to accept and grows the most during the movie. First, he is annoyed by Ariel but as he watches her and understands her more and more he also helps her more. He is more sensible then Ariel – mostly because Ariel is still very young. He is the voice of rationality opposed to Ariels impulsive, spirited nature. Because these two are so different, they can help each other a lot, I think.


    3. Choose one specific scene or sequence to analyze—tell me what response is it trying to evoke from the viewer and how does it go about getting that response? Your analysis could include the scene’s use of color, action, camera angles, music, character development, setting, backdrop, style, etc. If you can justify it with evidence from the scene, then it’s an analysis!
    I choose the scene when Triton comes to make Ariel to take his view on humans and ends in his destroying Ariels collection. He is first seen in shadow – this was used when Ursula first appeared and when a shy human Ariel appears for dinner wearing the pink dress. The scene is coll greenish-bluish as long as they are talking but becomes yellow and red and orange (colors associated with, between many other things, rage and jealousy), with dark figures as soon as Triton starts to destroy the grotto. He is also shown from a low perspective, making him look bigger and scarier as he is punishing Ariel. As soon as he ‘cools down’ the colors once more become greens and blues, indicateing the same his rueful face implies: he is sorry for what he has done ina fit of rage.

    4. Choose one song to analyze—tell me what response is it trying to evoke from the viewer and how does it go about getting that response? What purpose does this song have in the film and does it succeed in that purpose?
    It was difficult to choose between Part of your world and Under the sea. The first one is more connected to my chilshood – a little girl often goes for the princess songs. It is also the only Disney song I can play ont he piano.
    But I decided I have more to tell about Under the sea and there will be other people who do Part of your world (and better than I would)
    The song Under the sea presents everything the sea has to offer (for Ariel) and it also tells what the merfolk knows and thinks of the land and the people there (for the watchers). It is an attempt to distract Ariel – she loves music so a song looks like a good choice to do so and for a moment is looks like it works. It is not only a song, it grows into a great show but in the end, it fails – Ariel is nowhere near, she’s already thinking about Eric and Flounders surprise.
    The song also shows what Sebatian thinks: the sea is the best, there is nothing we could ask for.
    And because I’m mad and a translator-to-be, I translated the Hungarian lyrics back into English, so you understand it, too. *wants to share because the whole movie has some great solutions in the translation* Translations are a great way to have a look at the songs deeper layers, I think.
    First is the original, second is Hungarian (I marked it red, Sebastians color, so it's easy to tell where one ends and the other starts) third is my back translation.
    I only post the first half of it though :)

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2018
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  22. Meritre

    Meritre Active Member

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    second part:

    5. Choose one specific symbol in the film to analyze. A symbol is typically something inanimate, an object, rather than a character. So don’t say “Brer Bear represents dumb people,” as that’s more of a character analysis than a symbol. Rather, think about specific objects (jewelry, clothing, houses, food, weapons, etc.) What does this symbol mean and how does that meaning impact the film?
    I think I’ll go vith Erics flute. I think it stands for the relationship between Eric and Ariel, from Erics side (Ariels beautiful singingvoice being the counterpart) Eriv is first seen playing it when Ariel is around and falls in love with him. He plays it when he states that he looked everywhere for the beautiful voiced maiden and he throws it away when he decides do give up searching for beautiful voiced Ariel infavour of mute Ariel. Both are Ariel but he is not aware of that. Also when he throws away the flute, for the time being, his connection to Ariel disappears, as Vanessa appears and hypnotizes him and he forgets about Ariel.


    6. Choose a single line of dialog that you find to be the most significant/impactful line in the film and why. You can be a little loose with the “single line” bit, but let’s not go for Maleficent’s entire monologue to Philip... Rather, something like Stitch’s “This is my family. I found it all on my own. It’s little, and broken, but still good. Yeah – still good.” (brb weeping).
    "Teenagers, they think they know everything. You give them an inch, they swim all over you!"
    I have to add a back translation of the Hungarian version :)
    „Kamaszok, azt hiszik, mindent tudnak. Az ember a kisollóját nyújtja, de nekik a metszőolló kell.”
    „Teenagers, they think they know everything. They are handed a small pair of scissors but no, they want a big, sharp one.”
    There is a pun hidden in it, since in Hungarian, we use the same word for scissors and claws of a crab. :)
    I think this single line sums up Sebastians character and the story form his point of view pretty well. He spends a cinsiderable part of the movie chasing that big shard pair of scissor, aka Prince Eric for Ariel.
    It also shows how he thinks about teenagers – at the beginning of the movie. His view undergoes a great change during the movie. The counterpart for this quote is the one he tells at the end King Triton: "Well, it's like I always say, your majesty, children got to be free to lead their own lives."
    I think and it isn’t hard to charm out this side of him, seeing Ariels face just after she got her legs and decides to help her. He comes as far as letting the young ones be free and llead their own lives. Possibly he did go to these extremes because he preferred composing to running after a headstrong teenager. But I think he did the right thing: letting Ariel do what she wanted but watching her and getting help when it got to a point it needed intervention from someone stronger.

    7. What is this film’s overall goal? Is it to teach a specific lesson (what is it) or get an emotional response (such as)? Or both? And how well or poorly does the film succeed in that goal? Be specific!
    I read at many places that this story is all about ‘Go for your dreams, no matter what’ I think it’s more about learning to accept others opinions even if it doesn’t mach ours. I’m turning this more into Sebastians story than Ariels :D But he does learn that, and the viewers can learn about making decisions – mainly Ariels, to leave behind many of her friends and family for Eric. The film doesn’t really tell us if it was right or wrong, it’s up to us to decide. I personally didn’t like it (but can’t come up with a better decision) because she made this decision under strong emotional influence – she was sad and desparate and I think angry, too, and did it partly just to oppose her father. (That’s just what I see in her – when I was younger I thought like Ariel) True, she hesitates when she realizes that becoming a human means never seeing her family again but not for long.

    In the end everything turns out for the best – this may hints that Ariel was right but life is not a fairytale, I’d rather consider the story as learning and seeing the possibilities to grow and learning from the mistakes and seeing that both sides make mistakes– that, I think is a great message and I prefer it to the go for your dreams one. :)


    8. What connections or progressions do you see in this film to past films? Example: how does Sleeping Beauty progress (or digress?) the princess archetype built in Cinderella? Be specific! Also, consider what use there is in returning to or re-imagining those elements?
    Ariel is definitely very different from the previous princesses, she’s much more active and she does some rescuing herself. :)
    I read somewhere that Ariels pink dress kind of unites the three previous princess dresses.
    [​IMG]
    The big poofy part of the sleeves and the pattern on it comes from Snow Whites dress, the skirt is inspired by Cinderellas ballgown, tha tight part of the sleeves and the pointy, trianglelike ending of them and the color pink is from Auroras dress.
    I see her as a link between the active, modern princesses and the passive older princesses. She actively pursues her goal like the modern princesses while her goal is to get the prince which is more typical for the older princesses. She also takes some traits from the princes, like saving Erics life and taken by his extremely good-looks.


    9. What is the iconic shot of the film? What single frame of animation do you find to be the most memorable and why? Post it! You can check out this link to find some great screencaps to help!
    I knew already before watching that this one was the most iconic shot for me, Ariel finishing part of your world reprise, although there were quite a few runner ups.
    [​IMG]

    10. What single pin do you think best represents this film for you? Why? Give us the pin number and post a picture!
    I wanted to choose one that’s not the iconic shot I choose (there are quite a few ones showing Ariel on the rock) but it was still difficult. The iconic shot show her in her mermaid form so I wanted to go for a human or a transforming Ariel one. Kiss the girl was my choice but there are several pins for that. I went with this one, because it has Sebastian and Flounder, too.
    Pin 32968 Disney Auctions (P.I.N.S.) - Little Mermaid (Kiss the Girl)
    [​IMG]



    Stray thoughts: How did Flounder get that Eric statue into Ariels grotto? Did it by chance float in ther from the top and Flounder just discovered that?


    I read somewhere that the original story was written to scare children into good behaviour, but I know from my studies that the The Little Mermaid by Hans Christian Andersen was written for adults. He wrote all his fairytales. At least, that’s what I was taught. :)


    I’m going on forever about the color red but I didn’t mention Ariels hair – how come? I read that she was originally planned to be blond and changed to a readhead because there was another movie with a blonde marmaid in it and they wanted her to be different and that is the main reason behind her haircolor being red. Although earlier, people believed that people with red hair must have quite the temper. :)


    I didn’t want to go with the dinglehopper as a symbol because I saw that it was choosen by somebody else but I still wanted to share some thoughts. It connects the merpeoples world and the humans world. It comes from the humans world but ends up in the other world, in Ariels collection. It is also one of the few objects on land that are familiar to Ariel, somewhat reminding her of her home. She still uses it as she was taught to use it when she was still a mermaid, another connection to her former life.
    It could be the symbol of connecting to worlds but it can stand for Ariel herself as well since she connects the two worlds, comes from one worlds and ends up in the uther, just like the dinglehopper.
    In Hungarian it is called something like a hairtwirler or hairpoker by Scuttle.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2018
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  23. unibear

    unibear DPF Charter Member DPF Charter Member

    Rating - 100%
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    To me, this movie literally represents the rebirth of Disney. This is my favorite Disney princess movie, and one of my favorite Disney movies of all time.

    1. My overall impression of the movie… Several things:

    First off, the whole movie just feels right. I can’t really think of any major issues I have with this movie, and I think everything just meshes. Great princess, great prince, great villain, great story, and great music!!

    I absolutely LOVE the music. Every song is really cool. I love the use of orchestral instruments (horn, oboe, trombone, etc.), and even the accordion (or some variation) fits the mood when used. The styles are also varied—orchestral works, pop songs, reggae/Jamaican songs, etc. Just really cool! Every time I hear “Under the Sea” I get chills, and I love “Poor Unfortunate Souls”, “Kiss the Girl”, and even “Les Poissons”. I sure don’t know if I spelled that right…

    Jodi Benson’s voice is SO unique and beautiful. She IS Ariel, and I think they would have REAL problems in trying to get someone else to voice Ariel. Her singing is just heavenly, and my favorite Disney singing voice of all time!

    OK, so where are Eric’s parents? If they’re dead, he should be King Eric, right? They don’t appear in the film AT ALL, even at his wedding! WTF? To be fair, he put the wedding together on a day’s notice, so maybe they were somewhere else…

    What exactly does Ursula get from making these deals with the “Poor unfortunate souls”? I can see an overall plan in the deal with Ariel, but what about all of the others? Does she get their youth, energy, etc.? Or is it just that she’s evil and she’s doing it for kicks or to expand her “garden”? She also shows the trademark vanity required of every female (and some male?) villains…


    2. The character I chose to analyze was Grimsby. He represents the societal expectations and norms (propriety) imposed on Eric, as a prince. He also represents logical decisions—the head over the heart. Grimsby thinks that believing in mermaids is “nautical nonsense” that has no logical basis and that nice girls don’t just go out saving sailors and then flitting off.

    Grimsby gives Eric the statue and makes the jab that he had hoped it would be a wedding present. This is when we finally learn that Eric is a prince, and that he has been resisting the societal constraints of an arranged marriage to another princess.

    Grimsby also shows a kindness to Ariel as a poor soul saved and staying at the castle, as propriety would dictate, and even ignores her improprieties with the fork and pipe, because polite society would dictate this sort of kindness.

    Grimsby’s most important role in the film is to get Eric to realize that a warm and caring “real” girl is much better than any dream girl. This almost feels like a plea to the heart, it is in fact a very pragmatic approach to getting the prince married (i.e., it’s a logical decision to give up your dream and settle for someone “good enough” instead of pining away for a perfect dream girl).

    Finally, Grimsby initially resists a quick marriage of Eric and Vanessa because of propriety—planning a proper wedding takes time. But, when the prince orders a quick marriage, he acquiesces because the prince makes the rules based on this society.


    3. and 4. The scene I chose to analyze was the destruction of Ariel’s collection and the song I chose was “Part of That World” (I know it’s called “Part of Your World”, but I’m going to make a point). This song introduces Ariel’s dream (and her singing voice—WOW!). Ariel has an elaborate collection of human objects and a fixation with their society and her idealized views of what that is. At first, I thought she was just a hoarder, but it feels like her collection is her desperate attempt to escape her father's world.

    It’s very telling that when the song is first sung (and before she saw Eric), it was all about being “Part of THAT world” and that her fixation with the human world was not because of Eric. After she falls for Eric (based on the superficial fact that he’s “beautiful”), it then becomes “Part of YOUR world”…

    The reason for Ariel’s fixation on the human world isn’t exactly clear, but it does seem that it is an escape mechanism for an overprotective and overbearing father. Some of the lyrics support this idea: “Betcha on land, they understand, bet they don’t reprimand their daughters”. Sebastian alludes to this later in the film when he realizes that getting King Triton to break Ursula and Ariel’s deal so that Ariel could go back to her father and sisters would result in Ariel being miserable for the rest of her life.

    King Triton clearly provides ample evidence for this belief. It’s clear that he’s trying to protect his daughter from the dangers of the human world. But he’s clearly got anger issues and quite a temper. Several times in the movie, after yelling at Ariel or destroying her collection, he shows actual regret for his actions, but apparently he never learns not to let his anger get the better of him. While Triton thinks he’s being protective, Ariel views it as overprotective and controlling (and I would say rather dismissive of her feelings, as if she were still a toddler).

    In Triton’s defense (?), Ariel does act rather impetuously and is rather naïve. For example, she interprets a land creating wonderful things as implying that it must be a wonderful land. Triton interprets Ariel’s flirting with Eric’s statue as the act of a child, but I would argue that that doesn’t give him the right to destroy her personal property—and her dreams! After his tirade, Triton realizes that he went too far but at that point the damage was done (literally!). He does show real remorse and grief when the guards can’t find Ariel and Sebastian for days after the event, and I’d like to think that this has helped mellow his overprotective attitude which eventually allowed him to let Ariel go, and let her grow up.


    5. The symbol I chose to analyze was the statue of Eric. It started out as a gift to Prince Eric from Grimsby (this is how we learned that Eric was not merely a sailor, but a prince). As such, it represented royal propriety. Being a prince was certain obligations—like marrying a princess and having heirs, but Eric’s disdain for the statue showed that he was not happy with the expectations of marrying simply for the sake of making heirs.

    When Flounder gives Ariel the statue and it is part of her collection, it takes a double meaning for Ariel. It is now part of her collection, and is beloved as a connection to a world where she would not be subjugated by her father; but it also represents a physical manifestation of her infatuation with a “beautiful” human. I’m not sure I’d call it love, but it is clear that Ariel would. Ariel flirting with the statue seems rather childlike, but it matches with her childlike view of what the human world is really like.

    When is Triton destroying Ariel’s collection, obliterating the statue is the final straw for Ariel. In destroying the statue, Triton has literally dashed Ariel’s dream—and she is overcome with grief from the idea that she will never be able to escape from her father’s controlling and domineering behavior.

    (My first two-parter! And the first time I answered all 10 questions!)
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2018
  24. unibear

    unibear DPF Charter Member DPF Charter Member

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    6. and 7. The line I chose to analyze was from Ursula: “Life is full of tough choice, isn’t it?” From my perspective, the goal of the movie is to get us to realize that the choices we make are what defines our journey much more so than who we are. Several of the main characters have to make tough choices, and they define the journey taken in this film.

    Ariel: She must decide between her sisters and father versus the man she loves (or thinks she does). She must decide to try to live out her dream of being part of the human world instead of being miserable in the mermaid world. She also has to decide whether to fight to protect her dream man from Ursula or remain on the dock.

    Eric: He must decide between his dream girl and the real girl that he met and felt a connection to in the visit to his kingdom and in the grotto. When he finally realizes who Ariel is, he then has to make the choice to try to save her from Ursula.

    Sebastian: He wants to tell King Triton about Ariel’s bargain with Ursula right away to help save her, but he realizes that breaking the deal and getting Ariel back to the mermaid world would lead to her being miserable for the rest of her life, so he decides to look after her in her journey instead.

    King Triton: He wants to protect his daughter from the human world, but his actions (and temper) actually drive her into danger and into the human world. When he realizes that the contract between Ursula and Ariel is binding, he also makes the tough choice of trading places with Ariel to save her life (but hand over his kingdom to Ursula). Finally, in the end, he must make the tough choice to let Ariel go and let her marry Eric even though it is breaking his heart.


    8. Both Eric and Ariel represent significant changes from the traditional prince and princess tropes.

    Of all of the princes so far, Eric is the most developed as a real character and not just an archetype sent to save the damsel in distress and kill the villain. Eric is introduced as a sailor instead of a prince, and throughout most of the film he is dressed as a sailor (in rather plain clothes) instead of a prince (until the wedding).

    Eric is also the first prince to have significant interactions with characters other than the princess or villain. Eric’s interaction with Max show him to be a pet lover and a good person which makes him much more relatable compared to the other princes (Phillip has some interaction with Samson, but that’s about it). Eric also interacts with Grimsby and it’s clear that they have a strong relationship (would propriety allow Grimsby to see this as friendship?).

    We also get to see Eric in his contemplative moments, and this makes him more fleshed out than other princes so far. He feels like he fell in love with a mystery woman with a distinct voice. I guess this feels like Phillip falling for a mystery poor woman in the field, but Eric also interacts with Ariel as a lost soul living in his castle and starts to make real connections with Ariel. It feels like these several scenes (instead of just one song and dance in the woods for Phillip/Aurora) allows the audience to see a connection formed between Eric and Ariel, and it reaches fruition when he throws the flute in the ocean before falling under a spell.

    Ariel also represents a huge departure for the princess trope. So far, princesses have been, by and large, helpless damsels that need to be saved. They were passive and reacted to the strong prince. Ariel is introduced as adventurous, collecting human objects and running from sharks, grabbing the puppet, and taking control of the buggy, etc. She’s also willing to fight for what he wants/loves—Ariel is the first princess to stand up to the villain, swimming to the barge to save Eric from Ursula, fighting with Ursula to protect her father (“you monster”) and her prince which causes the destruction of Flotsam and Jetsam (“my little poopsies”).

    I believe that the changes in Eric and Ariel represent changes in societal expectations for males and females. In the time of “Snow White”, “Cinderella”, and “Sleeping Beauty”, men were expected to be the strong saviors of weak women—knights in shining armor whose job it was to save damsels in distress. In the 1980s, society was rejecting (had rejected?) these notions and replaced them with expectations that were less different for the two sexes—i.e., males and females can both be strong, can both need help, and can work together to solve a problem based on your skills and not your anatomical parts.


    9. I chose this scene because it shows Ariel’s love and longing for Eric. Plus, it reminds me of the Little Mermaid statue in Copenhagen.

    [​IMG]

    10. I picked this pin (32968) because it depicts the iconic “Kiss the Girl” scene where Eric first falls for Ariel.
    [​IMG]
     
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  25. Meritre

    Meritre Active Member

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    I thought there will be much more posts (lots of interesting things to read) about The little mermaid, as it is one of the most popular movies and marking the start of the Renaissance and all but... :( *hopes tomorrow comes more*

    Oh yes, you are so right! :)

    I didn't think of that but you are right on that, too!

    I saw it last year but it's always surrounded by huge masses of tourists. So we got this :D :
    [​IMG]
    Its funny how there are quite a few pins for this scene but we both chose this one :D That scene is really iconic :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2018

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