Scrappers and Rumors of how TWDC is/is not addressing the issue

Howdy Folks,

Due to the ongoing and ever increasing issue with scrappers, and a current OC criminal case involving two Ebay sellers of scrap pins, many rumors of how TWDC/DLR/WDW are handling this issue internally abound.

I am sure we have all heard rumors of people being threatened with being escorted out, pins being confiscated, trades being refused, CM's sorting genuine from scrap, etc.

I for one do not like RUMORS. I also would like to see the folks at TWDC take an active approach to resolving the issue. We pin traders are an active community within the TWDC and deserve to have our concerns recognized and addressed.

I know someone at the OCR which is interested in doing a piece on this issue, so any facts and/or internal contacts to help us get this moving in a direction which would benefit us all would be a great help. Please, only FACTS. Second hand 'I heard it from X that...' is not fact.

The goal is to have not only us get some assistance, but work with the folks at TWDC to show we support our hobby with a passion and do not want to see it gone, again. Scrappers are as bad as downloading music or videos from the net. But WE are the ones getting burned, as well as all the lost revenue to TWDC.

ALL feedback is welcome and appreciated!

TTFN!

We havent heard any rumors about the issue. We've always assumed they turned the other cheek. Whatever is being done about the issue, we'll support it.

I don't know how well Disney protects their logo.

tinkerbellfan117 said:

I don't know how well Disney protects their logo.

Click to expand...

True that. It seems they don't care sometimes, as long as they eventually get money.

IsaacandAmanda said:

True that. It seems they don't care sometimes, as long as they eventually get money.

Click to expand...

I think it depends- on US soil (and in other countries that actually CARE about trademark/copyright law), they're on it. Thus, all the stories about them slapping suits on the nurseries and such that painttheir characters on the outside of their buildings.

But China is a different bag of worms- they just don't care about copyright. Case in point:

http://www.businessinsider.com/22-best-knockoff-products-2009-11

My husband's anime site had a HUGE article on it- not just one or two companies ripping off the names and logos of McDonald's, Burger King, Apple, and more, but several EACH. It's a free-for-all over there...

I think they're not fighting it because they can't. Or rather, all they can really get is small victories. What's really sad is that I'm not even sure moving their factories out of China would help that much. It would stop some of the scrapper problem, but these counterfeiters would still get their hands on the pins, then run off copies with bad paint jobs, and they'd be right back in business. It would help, but it wouldn't stop it.

To the OP- good luck. Getting info out of anyone related to Disney about something negative like this will be hella difficult, assuming anything is actually going on. I'm not a Park Trader anymore, so I have no stories to tell from a Trader POV, either.

Disney's official policy is that counterfeit pins do not exist. I have been told this more than once at WDW pin trading Nite's.

They are doing nothing about this issue. We have friends who are CM'S. They tell me they know exactly who the Sharks are and put away their lanyards when they see these people approach. Now, if the CM'S know who these people are, don't you think Disney doesn't?? Just look at all the cameras, and those are just the ones that we can see. Who knows how many more cameras their are that we can't see. Yet, these same people are at the parks every single day. They start at one park and hit all 4 by noon. These aren't just individuals either. Our CM Friends tell us about a group of Senior Citizens in mobility carts, 4 of them, that completly wipe all the new pins off CM'S Lanyards and give them scrappers in return. Many people don't realize this but Disney wrote the book for Homeland Security on how to handle large groups of people. Facial recognition software, finger scans upon entrance, turn styles that only go one direction, it's all there in plain site. Yet, Disney somehow can't catch these people who are there every single day of the week passing out these scrapper or counterfit or whatever you want to call them. Personally, I think they don't care as long as it says (C)Disney on the back.

As long as Disney is making money, Disney is happy. Until/unless something happens to affect the bottom line on pins, I truly believe that nothing will be done unless the trading community unites and pressures Disney into recognizing that there are scrappers, and then subsequently doing something about it. Frankly, I don't think that is ever going to happen. The best way I can think of to at least slow down the scrappers is to move the factories to the US, but then the prices go up due to increased labor costs. I don't know that there is a reasonable solution, but I will be looking at any and all pins I trade for in the MK and handing them back if I think that they are not genuine.

It is my understanding that Disney, shoe manufactures, clothing manufactures, all got together and got the California legislature to pass copyright infringement laws that will make it easier to prosecute counterfeiters. You should see more cases being prosecuted in California in the near future. Then it is a state by state process to pass new laws.

Disney's official position has been to accept all pins that have an official Disney copyright and are in tradable condition - no visible damage to the painting, not overly scratched (wear). no broken - missing pin backs (damage), or unlicensed / non Disney characters. Castmembers (At World of Disney, Dinsey Parks, Disney properties, and at official Disney events, with lanyards will trade subject to the normal 2 pins per castmember per day limit.

That's it folks. While many castmembers DO care, they are not the pin police. Nor are they intended to be the first line of enforcement for the Disney copyright. In the legal field, The Walt Disney Company is reknown for their zeal and vigilance and success in protecting the Disney trademarks and copyright. You're quickly taught in Law School, you don't "mess with THE Mouse." If the Disney legal team is not taking civil actions against the "individuals an/or groups" importing counterfeit pins that are not siezed by US Customs and Border enforcement, it is not for lack of will only lack of a suitable target. They are going to want to target the larger organized rings of counterfeiters or the major players, not the individual guppies. And no matter how big a pin shark, the person might appear to be to the other traders, they're guppy sized in this net. Mind you if they draw attention of media or law enforcement, Disney lawyers WILL target those individuals as well as higher profile offenders. But it won't be CSI style at the park inspection of their books and dramatic alarms going off. You would be much more likely to be escorted to an appropriate Park Security office and then "invited" to depart Disney Property with or without an optional escort by the Anaheim police.

As for ejection from the park, again one need only look to the code of conduct for park guests. If you violate those rules, you may expect to be escorted from the park (or event) and depending on the infraction barred from returning anywhere from the remainder of the day, to up to a year, or LIFE. Those violating that restriction may be prosecuted for criminal trespassing. Notice that prohibited items specifically does not say counterfeit or scrapper pins. Most traders have a built in excuse, I got it from a cast member. This does not excuse knowingly dealing in counterfeit pins, but this maxim pretty well sums it up, "Garbage in, garbage out". In other words, you get back in trade what you are willing to give up in trade.

As for money being lost to counterfeiting, Disney is a multi billion dollar company (current stock quote at time of posting $73.877 billion with profits of 4.9 billion for the past reporting period). Simply put, no matter how lucrative the profit margin on pins is (and I suspect it's huge), a few hundred thousand or even a few million dollars here/there is not even going to show up as an * on a stock profit/loss report much less an attention getting line item. Now a $200 million movie bomb, after a few prior movie disasters (Mars Needs Women, Hannah Montanna world tour the movie), - that will get their attention. But even then, it won't necessarily do more than a scratch the paint in the corporate bottom line.

Disney has repeatedly said they have neither time, nor the desire to police the secondary market. That's us folks. Outside, away from the park and sanctioned events, pins trade for what they trade for and sell for whatever the market will pay. Disney is not losing a dime on the secondary market as they never made one cent from being active in it. They openly and repeatedly say, anything not directly purchased from Disney cannot be guarenteed as being genuine Disney merchandise, whether it's a pin, shirt, art print, or DVD.

Again, this is supposed to be a fun, entertaining hobby. If you make a few bucks at it, more power to you. But if you think that Disney should be producing LE pins for you to resale at inflated secondary market prices, think again. Disney owes you NOTHING. They have no obligation to manufacture pins for you to obtain for later resale in your store (online or otherwise). Disney corporate marketing likely doesn't even know you exist. And if we ultimately see the US Disney Pin Trading become Pin Collecting (as it is in Japan) or see just only common mass production/lower quality pins, we have only ourselves to blame.

Thank you for all the great feedback folks. It seems that the topic I will be discussing with some 'big people' at TWDC is going to center on Ebay/Craigslist sellers and the scrap lot sales. MAYBE some light discussion on CM lanyards with scrap pins, but I believe cutting off the source will benefit everyone in the long run.

Stopping it at the plants is the only effective means of bringing the counterfeit problem under reasonable control. So long as they plants can crank out the pins without consequences, they will do so.

As for what can be done, I know of 3 traditional ways to put a counterfeiter out of business.

1) Make the price of counterfeiting too high for there to be a profit. While this can include traditional jail time, that only works when there is a relative certainty of prosecution. But on the other hand no one counterfeits $1 bills - costs too much / too little profit in return. Disney can drive down both price and demand, by lowering the price of pins as well as larger runs of the LE pins. I suspect the profit margin on pins is very large given a run of 5000 costs a typical person about $1.10 each. Disney likely has a far larger discount. A profit marging of only 400% ($4) vs 1000% ($10) might impact the bottom line but would gut the profit margin of those faking pins. Why by from that guy on the internet street corner when you can have Genuine Disney for a few cents more. Given the millions of visitors to the Walt Disney parks 1 of an LE2500/5000 is still an impressive collectable item and similiar to their LE runs of other collectables. It aslo would take a large bite out of the market for higher end counterfeits.

2) Disney pins need a better tracking anti-counterfeit scheme. While quality and back margins help, they need something not easily replicated and ideally that they add before sale. Hard Rock Cafe has used a holographical bubble for years with good success. So too do official Olympic and other collectable venues. Disney needs to return to this use as well as the distincitive waffle patterning. But what about older pins? Like Major League Baseball, Disney could have pins they trade out marked with a permanent authentiation sticker (holographical mickey head or similiar icon). It won't take all the bad pins out of circulation, but wil make spotting them much easier in the future. People who are continually trading "old" and "untagged" pins will quickly end up being pushed to the side as they will be easily identifiable bootlegers. The transition would take a few years, unless hurried along by a "pin certification" process. But it would mean getting involved with secondary market. On the other hand by having a way of "adopting" the better quality counterfeit pins via a legitimizing stamp, Disney gets the benefit of free production of the pins. When you're only getting similiar pins in return (HM for HM / common for common/ LE for LE) and potentially your own "legitimized counterfeit", the profit motive quickly goes away.

3) The last way to put a counterfeiter out of business is active enforcement. Understandablly Disney does not want to upset legitimate guests who have obtained bad pins thinking it is just a trading base. But they can actively identify more agressive traders and those with "large bags" of identical pins. Another way to slow down those, who think Disney pins exist to fund the secondary market is to make pin trading a bit more time consuming. Having a trader well within a line cue makes both the cue more entertaining for a genuine guest, and guarentees a pin shark will be looking for easier quicker targets. Having Disney run pin trading tables / events - in an area where the 2 trade/day limit can be enforced more easily can also help. And much like speeders seeing a patrol car, people knowingly trading counterfeit pins tend to put them away when faced with a knowledgable person.

Good luck and hope some ideas can succeed

I really don't think they crack down in the scrappers/sellers.

Sirsnoozit said:

Our CM Friends tell us about a group of Senior Citizens in mobility carts, 4 of them, that completly wipe all the new pins off CM'S Lanyards and give them scrappers in return.

Click to expand...

:lol: Sad and funny at the same time. Is this in WDW or DLR ??

Applecore said:

It seems that the topic I will be discussing with some 'big people' at TWDC is going to center on Ebay/Craigslist sellers and the scrap lot sales.

Click to expand...

Pls do not forget Amazon. I have not checked for a while, but in the past I have seen scrapper lots on Amazon too.