How would you respond to this e-mail

I sent out some trades this morning, and you know sometimes my trades may seem off a little one way or another, but it is based off what I think is fair and sometimes lopsided in their favor. Well, I sent out a TA to someone who responded with this

some people do not know the value of some pins
as i see every day, you send request for these 2 pins
Pin A
Pin B

i never replied cause these 2 pins are on the higher end side and the pins you offer are not even close to a fair trade

the Pin A is valued about $75-$100
and the Pin B is about $125

but just thought i would let you know the value of these 2 pins
maybe this will help you on what to offer for them and maybe then some one might accept one of your offers

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To me, that seems a little harsh, and I responded with

Here is your base cost for the two pins below as per PinPics

Pin A @ $15.25
Pin B@ $25

You say fair trade, which is a very subjective term. Using Pin B as an
example I do not see how you come to a price of $125 with a base cost
of $25. If you are using E-Bay as your guide; E-Bay is also very
subjective, as someone may have it listed for a certain price, but
unless someone actually buys it, it can be listed at any price and be
considered the "value".

I offer what I think is a fair trade based on cost, and whether it is
an LE or rack pin, and if someone declines that is their right. Or
they offer a counter trade.

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Was I out of place to respond? Would you have done it different? Something to consider, for the 2 pins in question, I actually offered multiple items per pin, but since PinPics does not group them by user, it is hard to say I will offer 2-3 pins for your one pin, so I try to make an offer to at least open dialogue, not to be told I do not know how to trade.

OMG!!!!!

I think I've tried to trade with that same person. He/she was really rude in their response saying that my offer was ridiculous. I emailed back and told the person that they didn't have to be rude in declining. Then he/she responded back again even worse. I was shocked and so disheartened that someone out there could be so rude about this. Aren't you supposed to have fun with pin trading?

I think your response was just fine.

broncobilly83 said:

I sent out some trades this morning, and you know sometimes my trades may seem off a little one way or another, but it is based off what I think is fair and sometimes lopsided in their favor. Well, I sent out a TA to someone who responded with this



To me, that seems a little harsh, and I responded with



Was I out of place to respond? Would you have done it different? Something to consider, for the 2 pins in question, I actually offered multiple items per pin, but since PinPics does not group them by user, it is hard to say I will offer 2-3 pins for your one pin, so I try to make an offer to at least open dialogue, not to be told I do not know how to trade.

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I don't think you were out of hand, or out of place. You simple let the trader know how you looked at things. If he finds it offensive or rude, then maybe he shouldn't be doing the same 🙂 Good job.

I have a few thoughts on this one:

1. Initially, the response was a bit presumptions. It drives me crazy when people think that just because the TA didn't find the perfect match that the person that sent it is automatically stupid, doesn't know values, is trying to shark them, or is prime pickings to be taken advantage of. My response would have been along the lines of saying that they should be a little more open minded when it comes to TA's and that they aren't always going to be perfect. If they would have just taken the time to look at your trades then maybe something could have been worked out but you can only offer what they have on their trades list. Ughghghhg, now I've gotten myself all fired up. Some people just don't realize that when they send condescending emails like this that sometimes they are the ignorant one....

2. Your response would really depend on the pins in question. You are correct in that prices on ebay are only as good as what actually sold (repeatedly, not just once) but if you truly stick strictly to original cost, I don't think that is right either. If you just go by cost then a lot of your trade requests won't seem fair to other people.

In the end, I think the other person was rude in the way they phrased their email without knowing what your intent was.

Absolutely fine response IMO - I have sent out some TA's today - to date only one response (from a DPF member!!). I am after the DLR Hidden Mickeys which at the moment are asking silly money on eVilbay, I have offered rack/open pins but I'm sure 99% of the TA's will get laughed at! We'll see!

I personally don't think they were rude in their response. I think they were just trying to explain to you the differences in trading. They might not have known you were talking about multiple trades or that you were an experienced trader and busted wanted to offer some words of advice, in case you did not know.

Trust me when I say that the response you received was not rude. I have had people be extremely rude and this actually seemed as if they were just trying to help you out.

Your response as well did not seem rude, so it is all about being informative. :-0)

Vicki

erudolf said:

I have a few thoughts on this one:

1. Initially, the response was a bit presumptions. It drives me crazy when people think that just because the TA didn't find the perfect match that the person that sent it is automatically stupid, doesn't know values, is trying to shark them, or is prime pickings to be taken advantage of. My response would have been along the lines of saying that they should be a little more open minded when it comes to TA's and that they aren't always going to be perfect. If they would have just taken the time to look at your trades then maybe something could have been worked out but you can only offer what they have on their trades list. Ughghghhg, now I've gotten myself all fired up. Some people just don't realize that when they send condescending emails like this that sometimes they are the ignorant one....

2. Your response would really depend on the pins in question. You are correct in that prices on ebay are only as good as what actually sold (repeatedly, not just once) but if you truly stick strictly to original cost, I don't think that is right either. If you just go by cost then a lot of your trade requests won't seem fair to other people.

In the end, I think the other person was rude in the way they phrased their email without knowing what your intent was.

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erudolf said:

In the end, I think the other person was rude in the way they phrased their email without knowing what your intent was.

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Well Put!

jeffluvsstitch said:

OMG!!!!!

I think I've tried to trade with that same person. He/she was really rude in their response saying that my offer was ridiculous. I emailed back and told the person that they didn't have to be rude in declining. Then he/she responded back again even worse. I was shocked and so disheartened that someone out there could be so rude about this. Aren't you supposed to have fun with pin trading?

I think your response was just fine.

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Good call on the follow up response:

I was just trying to be nice and let you know about these pins and how they are trading

but i see you only see these pins as a piece of metal

people collect these and have a VALUE

you are NOT valuing pins for what they are worth just cost
and that is fine

you want to trade cost for cost

most traders do not trade that way for holy grail pins

that's why you might not get replies back and most people delete offers like that
i usually do too
but i just decided maybe you did not know the value of the pin
but you do and you only want to trade cost for it

as every trader has the right to trade how they want

but good luck to you

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and my response to him, yeah, slightly snide I think, but that response of his was uncalled for.

That's nice. Unfortunately, had you actually asked, I would have been willing to trade more than 1 pin for some of these pins. PinPics does not have the function to specifically state, "I will trade these PINS for your pin". I do realize "value" but I also realize it is highly subjective, as a rare pin to me for a character I do not collect is not worth as much to me as a older rack pin with a character I do collect.

You really should get more information before getting on a soapbox assuming the other person does not know what he/she might be doing

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I give a nice no thank you, mainly because it is lopsided, but sometimes the person responds back with look at my traders and we do. Sometimes we will counter, but mostly decline because we're in a certain pin rut (like I only want Ariels this week). Go figure >^..^<, I know it can be frustrating, but remember this is a fun hobby so don't let this person get you down. Also in the comment box/message box write please counter offer, will do multiple pins for your 1 pin and I get more responses saying we looked and no, but at least I tried.

im really getting tired of people using ebay as a value guide,it seems like more and more traders are doing this.people must remember those who sell pins on ebay are trying to make a profit,so of course most of the listed prices are outrageous.if you know what your pins are really worth,and you get a neg.response from someone stating that their pin is worth way more,id try to steer clear from trading w/that individual from now on.their obviously waiting for a out of this world offer for that pin.

Amen on all the EBay pin value comments. Winning bids remind me of the "stability" of the stock market!

Personally, I don't think the emails were intended to be rude. The first sentence, some people do not know the value of some pins, might be a bit tactless, but overall the writer sounds as if he/she is sincerely trying to help.

Billy, you don't say whether you included a note to ask to open a dialogue. So this trader may have just seen the trade you offered and, not knowing your experience level, assumed you were inexperienced and needed some help. Lots of the traders on Pinpics right now are very new and I think that was a fair assumption. A short comment about opening a dialogue, or "Look at my traders!" is helpful. Personally, I kind of think it's cool that they offered to help. I've gotten (what I consider) completely lopsided trade offers before and usually ignore them because (a) I don't want to make someone mad (ala this case) or (b) they made me mad with the offer and I'm not sure if they're really serious so I don't pursue it. Neither way is good because then neither of us get what we want.

And as for ebay, it's a perfectly good place to research values. Just look at what pins actually SOLD for and not what they are LISTED for. The differences can be amazing!

Whether the email is viewed as rude or informative, it sounds like this is not a compatible trader for you. Take it with a grain of salt and move on.

I liked the thread that Lucan444 wrote http://disneypinforum.com/showthrea...es-for-Pin-Trading-Events-A-Suggestion-or-Two. If you can, try to establish the type of trader you're dealing with and go from there. 🙂

Jabberwocky said:

Under the "My PinPics" page, click this linK: Click here to view your current pending trade requests

Then delete other requests and make sure you include a message with your TA offer in the box where it says:
"If you would like a short note to be sent with these trade requests, please type it here (maximum of 60 characters)"

Then just include a note that says "I am offering these 3 pins in trade for your pin".

I think it's the responsibility of the person making the offer to make sure the offer is clear. Because if it's not, I'd just assume it's a lopsided offer and delete it too.

If someone is not willing to make the effort to make a clear, fair offer, why should one expect the other person to respond positively?

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I really disagree with this. You make it sound really easy, and it probably is for you since you have very specific wants with very few people trading them. I know how to do and have done exactly what you are saying with with my ultra difficult wants that I was really focused on getting. But there are some major flaws with this method.

1) It is very time consuming. If you are really trying to find that one special pin, sure, no big dig deal. But if you want to send out lots of TA's for less difficult pins that would be very time consuming and very difficult when you are dealing with multiple pins. One night, I set up a bunch of TA's and when I went to go edit them they were going to over 100 different people! Considering response rates even when the offers are fair, editing them is way too time consuming for one person. But if each recipient would just read it with an open mind then we could maybe get somewhere.

2) I can only offer what I have that is on your wants list. There are lots of pins out there that people may not realize they want yet. If I want your LE 500 but only have a hidden mickey pin from your wants list I could either a. write you off as someone that I can't trade with or b. send it anyways and hope that you will actually look at my trades list and see something you like or something that might make a good trader for you (And when I say "you" I don't mean you personally, I just mean Joe Trader. I know that wouldn't be as easy with "you" personally because your wants are so specific, but not everyone knows those things about everyone else.....ok, that was a little confusing...)

3) When you are setting up lots of trades you can't pick and choose who the comments go to. If two different people have a pin I want, depending on their wants, I may want to tell one person I'll offer multiples but tell the other person I'd need multiples. The only comment I can come up with is "Multiples may be needed in either direction". And in that case, when the comment is so vague, what's the point?

The TA is just not flexible enough and I wish people would just be more open minded and stop assuming the worst about everyone. Whenever these TA discussions come up I am always reminded of what my history teacher would do. He would write the word ASSUME on the board and then add slashes - ***/U/ME - and point as he said "assuming makes and *** out of you and me". I'm not calling anyone an *** so don't get angry!!! The whole TA thing just reminds me that it is poor practice to assume you know what other people's intentions are.

breadnbutterflies said:

im really getting tired of people using ebay as a value guide,it seems like more and more traders are doing this.people must remember those who sell pins on ebay are trying to make a profit,so of course most of the listed prices are outrageous.if you know what your pins are really worth,and you get a neg.response from someone stating that their pin is worth way more,id try to steer clear from trading w/that individual from now on.their obviously waiting for a out of this world offer for that pin.

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I don't think there is anything wrong with using ebay as long as you are using neumerous historical sales and not the BIN prices. Many of those set prices are ridiculous, but if a pin routinely sells at auction for $50 then it is a $50 pin and should be treated as such. If it is only worth $10 to you, that's fine, but in that case you have got to be prepared for it to sit on you wants list for a very long time, possibley forever.

I can see it both ways

1.) The guy just could have said 'no thank you' and it would have been done with, but he had to be a smart a-.

2.) Original Prices usually don't apply after a certain period. For example,



sold for 10 bucks. Now it's worth... what? A crazy amount.

Jabberwocky said:

^ Yes, I know it is time consuming to do it the way I said. For the first few years I traded on PinPics when my wants list started at around 800 pins, I would spend hours every single day working up acceptable/fair trade offers. I weeded and edited down hundreds of offers at a time to targeted offers to people that I felt were good offers. When people wondered at how I accomplished so much so quickly making hundreds of trades for the pins I wanted, it's because I took the time (yes, hours every single day) to make good offers so I got good responses. I think if you put in the efforts (at anything), you get the results. If you don't put in the efforts, you don't get the results.

I kept track of every single offer I sent. I did not duplicate. I did not send out offers of the same pins to different people so I wouldn't have to deal with complications of "no, it's not available anymore" - I waited and sent out different offers on different days. I did it the long hard way. And I got the results that I got. It worked for me. But if people don't want to put in the effort, they problem won't reap the same results. Their choice.

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WOW. That is great that you did that, but a shame that you had to. If lines of communication were just opened up a little more then maybe it wouldn't have taken so much effort. And not everyone can spend hours and hours each day doing trade requests. That doesn't mean that they want it less, but they may have other things that they need to do.

Still, that doesn't solve this problem:

2) I can only offer what I have that is on your wants list.

All you can do there is a tailor made comment and hope for the best.

Jabberwocky said:

Yes, but if it's not on my wants list, then I don't want it. 😉

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Everyone isn't like that though. There are lots of pins that I'd want that aren't on my wants list.

I don't think anyone is ungreatful for the tools we have, but if people were more flexible with how they used them then maybe we wouldn't have to jump through so many hoops or have misunderstandings like the one in this topic. Putting a comment of "let's discuss" or "please contact me" is fine, but why is it necessary? Isn't the TA itself saying that you are interested in working something out? Why do we have to be so redundant? Trading shouldn't be that difficult...

I think that if the recipiant of the original TA being discussed was going to take the time to write the response then they should have first looked at his trades to see if there was anything they liked. If there was, they could have said "I'd be willing to work something out" or "I'd be willing to trade this for that" and if there wasn't they could have just said "I looked through your trades but I'm sorry, I didn't see anything I'd be willing to trade these pins for". Much more productive than what was done...

Jabberwocky said:

^ And it seems to me that the recipient was trying to provide context of why they hadn't responded to multiple redundant lopsided requests. I didn't see their response as rude, just an attempt to explain their reasoning to help make the person who sent it aware of why they weren't being responded to. Which seems to me to be not only productive, but instructive.

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They may have been trying to help but they did it poorly. The sender didn't necessarily need instruction. Maybe they just wanted to open dialogue which was finally done, but the tone of the response was that the sender didn't know pin values. And to say "then some one might accept one of your offers" seems a bit rude. If the sender knows the values but doesn't have the pins that would be acceptable then the response was absolutely unhelpful. They could have at least said what they wanted for the pins in question.

Also, this is all under the belief that what they said was true. We don't know what the pins in question were so the prices they quoted could be completely wrong. Look at ebay...there are tons of run-of-the-mill pins listed for $150 or more. If the pins in question are really only $20 pins, would that change your opinion on whether the response was rude? It might.... So again, if they were going to respond then looking at his trades and then either presenting an offer or saying no would have been much more productive. Of course, maybe they are one of those people who refuses to make offers....in which case that is another pet peeve of mine. Trading is a two way street and both parties should actively participate.

Im sorry but just looking at these two messages and without knowing what the pins are, I would have to say the message that I view as rude is the second message, your response. The first message looks like someone that is getting annoyed about getting the same lopsided offer day after day and spending some time to try and educate someone on the value of the pin.

Now, with that being said, based on what the pins in question is and the value they put on them can change things. If its an accurate value, then good for them for trying to share info and help out others who might not know.

The original cost of a pin may have some correlation to the value of the pin if they are not much different but if a pin cost $15-25 originally and valued at $75-125 on the secondary market, the original cost really doesn't matter. What if the pin would have been a gift pin. Those don't have any original cost so how would that affect the value for you?

breadnbutterflies said:

im really getting tired of people using ebay as a value guide,it seems like more and more traders are doing this.people must remember those who sell pins on ebay are trying to make a profit,so of course most of the listed prices are outrageous.if you know what your pins are really worth,and you get a neg.response from someone stating that their pin is worth way more,id try to steer clear from trading w/that individual from now on.their obviously waiting for a out of this world offer for that pin.

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I completely disagree with you. eBay is the best guide for values out there. Its the most up to date source available. The eBay value is not what a pin is being offered for but what it sells for. If someone gives up $XXX for a pin, isn't that what its worth? Its more accurate than someone trading Pin A for Pin B. What's the value of Pin A? It depends on what the value of Pin B is. How to you figure that one out? Cash has an exact value where pin values vary.

If the prices on eBay are "outrageous" but yet are resulting in sales, isn't that the going rate for that pin?

Also, when it comes to values, its all about supply and demand. If someone has a pin and their asking price is insane and you look for it else where and can not find one anywhere else, what is the value?

To me, value of the pin depends on historical selling prices and current asking prices. Obviously the most recent would be the best indication of the value.

Hi,
I think no matter what his intention he could have worded his original email in a more friendly way, if he was trying to be informative, as it does come across quite arrogant, moreso than helpful IMO.
I do think however that unfortunately if you are valuing pins mainly by their original cost that you will either over or under estimate the value of a pin. However even though I do agree that value of a pin is subjective, I think ebay can often be a good price guide for pins, as long as you check a few auctions for the same pin and not just one.


One thing that really puts me off pin trading is how some (not all) experienced traders forget what it was like to be new or inexperienced and can act very condesending towards others. Sometimes even if you are experienced they still may talk down to you for not making a trade they consider fair, instead of just nicely declining. I went to a PTN in France that was very much full of traders like this and to be honest it really put me off pin trading for a long time and I left feeling like I was something they stepped on! How can any trader justify making someone else feel bad, or stupid? Being an experienced pin trader does not mean you can treat others with disrespect and I think those that do, need a massive reality check - it is meant to be a fun hobbie, not a cut throat bussiness. Being mean or condesending is not the Disney way. This is just my opinion.

x

Was I out of place to respond?

No.

Would you have done it different?

Yes. I would have ignored him. I can argue with a dog as long as I want. It isn't going to change his mind.

But I think you were reasonable and correct in what you said.

Aveen2010 said:

Hi,

One thing that really puts me off pin trading is how some (not all) experienced traders forget what it was like to be new or inexperienced and can act very condesending towards others. Sometimes even if you are experienced they still may talk down to you for not making a trade they consider fair, instead of just nicely declining. I went to a PTN in France that was very much full of traders like this and to be honest it really put me off pin trading for a long time and I left feeling like I was something they stepped on! How can any trader justify making someone else feel bad, or stupid? Being an experienced pin trader does not mean you can treat others with disrespect and I think those that do, need a massive reality check - it is meant to be a fun hobbie, not a cut throat bussiness. Being mean or condesending is not the Disney way. This is just my opinion.

x

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I completely agree as I felt the same way when I attended the PTN in January as I felt like a fish out of water after collecting pins for a year as they all seemed there for PTN pins only and were all looking for the best offers etc, I was lucky to find a very nice Dutch Trader who helped me out and once the pins were released it got alot calmer people were less on edge.

Hi Bill,

You know what I hate the most about e-mails from traders? It is the fact that they are easily misunderstood. Sometimes, a trader will take the time to let you know why your trade offer was not good enough, and would never be good enough, because the pins you seek may have a value that has been proven to be much higher than what you might think it is. Cost for cost is a great and fair way to trade, if the pins in question are relatively new, but when you go back and ask for old DA pins, this is not the case, because not everyone was lucky enough to win the DA auctions and pay cost for the pins they got. This means they need to get back what they spent on the pin. And most times, it is still a lower price than these pins are selling on ebay. An example is pin 41958. The original cost of the pin is $40.55. Has anyone found it going for that in the past 5 years? I was not lucky enough to get it at that price, because it sold out on DA. Am I now expected to trade it cost for cost? Yet, those are the offers I get for it.

My point is that ebay should not rule the value placed on a pin, but neither should pinpics with stating the actual cost. This is what makes is so hard when trading high end pins. The rarity of the pin counts too.

I do not think the trader was being rude, but just trying to explain why they were not accepting your offers. They could have stated the facts about the pins you are seeking, and should have never put your pins down. That is the only mistake I think they made. There is no need to insult someone else's pins ever. That is the only reply I would have given them, and then moved on, because they are upsetting you more and more each time you think about it. Are they worth your time? And remember, you really do not know their true intentions in their e-mail.

I always put a note with my TA requests. If I think the trade is evenly matched I write "Thank you for the courtesy of a reply." If I want to offer more I write "Willing to trade multiple pins for this." If I know it's lopsided in their favor I always put in "Trying to open a dialog. Like to trade."

If that doesn't get it, I mark them off my list of folks to trade with and move on. It takes time on my part to put them together and time on their part to answer me. I get a LOT of no thanks. Sometimes I write back and ask is there anything else I have or can you tell me what you want for that pin.

I work hard at trading and I would have been very offended at their email. I hope all this discussion doesn't put someone off on trading with the TA. It's hard and more often than not I don't get replies. Is it frustrating - yes, but not worth worrying about. Some people don't know how to write a polite email and I take the rude ones with a grain of salt and mark them off my list. You should just move on and find someone who WANTS to trade with you.

I agree that eBay is a terrible place to try to value pins. I've seen rack pins sell for hundreds of dollars and LE 100 pins sell for less than thirty dollars. A pin's value is only what you are willing to pay for it. If you value what you collect as rare, you would be willing to pay more than someone just looking for good traders. Value is subjective and subject to market fluctuations. Since the economy is down, pins are selling for less, does that make them less valuable? When and if the economy recovers do they become more valuable? A pin is a shiny piece of metal and we all value OUR pins much higher that YOUR pins. It just the way people are and you are never going to change it. So don't use eBay as a guide unless you want to confuse yourself.

Good luck with your trading. I'm having a long, dry, lonely spell and haven't made many trades. But I'm hanging in there.