My Sunday.

[Psycho Pixie]

The title may not suggest it, but this DOES belong in pin discussions.

This morning we went to the Disneyana event... not for the Disneyana event itself, but to have breakfast with Holland Hayes, and to attend the Panels being hosted. we actually didn't even go into the disneyana expo... too much temptation there for my wallet to handle. We avoided it like a plague to save our budget.

Breakfast was a blast, we got to hang out with other traders, both DPF and PinTalk. I met the wonderful Peacheyshades from PT. and she is just the sweetest lady!!! Breakfast was yummy. But most important was our visiting time with Holland. Heres a "scoop" on how that went! Firstly, i want to say he is SUCH a nice guy! He took time to speak to our little girls, he spent time visiting with every single person there, he did trades with anyone who had pins and he even gave our 4 yr old an adorable little box/tin 5 pin cinderella set.

Trading with him was a great! His trade book is so organized! He even explained why and how he does it to attract the eyes and encourage people to linger on each page instead of just a fast flip through. We traded multiple pins, and he is incredibly fair. A very kind and generous man!

Now, on to the panel discussions they had today. 3 Panels were hosted today. I must say, I was VERY SAD to see so few DPF people attending, especially with all the questions folks have had about pinpics, pin grading, PoDM's and assorted other things! However to those i did see today.. It was wonderful to get to see you and say hi!!!

Panel 1: Holland Hayes.
Holland gave us the scoop on pin tradings history, how it came to be, and the original inspiration behind it. Did you know it all started when disney saw the Olympic pin traders????? wow! He also discussed in depth how pins are made, and of course... pin etiquette with CM's. After his panel, he spent time with the audience members trading and even gifted a few pins as well!

Panel 2: Erika Rudolph.
Erika recently released an absolutely AWESOME book about PoDM's. It either is already, or soon will be available on pinpics, and later Amazon. I missed some of the discussion, because my girls were being happy noisy so i took them out of the room for a bit. However, the basic idea here, is that she has spent a LOT of time researching the scenes, how the films were made, how the pins themselves are made etc... and has become something of an expert with PoDM's. I spent some time looking through this book and would recommend it to ANYONE looking to collect this incredible series. It is highly informative.

Panel 3: Why encapsulate your pins.
This was a discussion about the grading system, future plans, and why encapsulating high end pins is a good idea. They covered a LOT of the questions recently voiced in that thread about the Hakes auction. This is the panel i really wished more people had attended. They discussed how they gave a pin its grade, what kind of pins are most suitable to be graded. They told us what to expect and gave price points. They also addressed the concern about pin grading effect on future prices on the secondary market. I saw and held some pins that had been graded and encapsulated. They are lovely displayed this way and would be absolutely stunning singly or in groups in a shadow box.

It appears to be a rather volatile topic on here and I do not want my thread turned into a massive drama-fest. For now, i just don't want to end up ice creaming bombing my own thread if people decide to be less than civil. Polite, direct questions will be answered as best as possible here if you like.

So, that was how i spent my Sunday! I had so much fun, did some great trading and enjoyed time with friends.

OH! I also got to be interviewed for a video they were putting together that covered the 3 panels and other stuff's. I can't wait to see if they use anything I said/did. THAT was a new experience!

 

[tinkerbelle1956]

I love Holland Hayes (Scoop) . Back when we first started going to WDW, he had his very own Pin Talk, which took place from Noon to One. It was held in the back Of the Main Street Photo Store. He talked about pin etiquette with the CM's and other interesting details on pins. I was sad when they stopped the presentation.
Glad you had fun.

 

[tyleet87]

What does it mean to encapsulate pins?

 

[starry_solo]

Glad you had a good time. I would have tried to make it but sis & I were celebrating our parents' anniversary with them (belated but still, a good celebration!)

 

[Romancing_Train]

What does it mean to encapsulate pins?

Put them in small clear boxes that are made of an acrylic resin that aren't supposed to be opened again.

 

[tyleet87]

Put them in small clear boxes that are made of an acrylic resin that aren't supposed to be opened again.

Oooh. Thanks!

 

[Firebaby22]

Glad you had fun. Holland is great. Hope lots of new people got to meet him. He is the walking encyclopedia of all things Disney pins.

 

[LuvSimba]

I'm glad you had a good time.

Wasn't a free event was it? I thought there was a fee to attend it.

I'm in FL, so attending wasn't really an option. But, even if I had been there, I probably wouldn't have attended anyway. I'm lucky to have Holland, aka Scoop, in my own back yard (WDW) and I've attended his pin talk since it's inception (lost count how many times I attended--worth seeing each and every time I went). I'm glad others, on the other coast, who might not be able to make it to WDW, were able to enjoy Holland. He's a real treat!!

While I'm not a huge collector of PoDM's, that part might of the event would have been interesting.

As for the encapsulating, I'm against every aspect of it, and already voiced my opinion on another thread. Tho, from your description, it doesn't sound like they answered any questions/concerns that were brought up in the other thread on here. Maybe, and this is only my opinion, since so many people are against the encasing of pins, they didn't want to attend...again, only my opinion.

 

[Psycho Pixie]

The breakfast was a pay thing, but the panels hosted were totally free and in the room next to the disneyana expo. The Disneyana expo was $5.00? for the day I think...

as to the questions from the other thread... since it was deleted i cannot say if every single one was addressed. but many were, and I will TRY to help answer questions with information i gained at the discussion if folks ask.

 

[LuvSimba]

Hmmm...DPF isn't allowing me to Reply with Quote...but anyway. If the panel was free, then those that missed Holland, truly missed a great talk.

My biggest question for the encapsulators would have been, why are they removing the original card or not including the card, in the process, if the pin has it? And why would it be considered authentic without the card in the first place? I have a million more questions, but since I didn't attend, this one would have been first on my list.

OK, one more, who (name) is their expert on the pin being authentic? Not the person who knows how pins are made..that doesn't make them an expert on what is real and what's not, since fakes and the real thing are made the same way, by the same factories.

Thank you, I look forward to your answers.

 

[Cjvandever]

The breakfast was a pay thing, but the panels hosted were totally free and in the room next to the disneyana expo. The Disneyana expo was $5.00? for the day I think...

as to the questions from the other thread... since it was deleted i cannot say if every single one was addressed. but many were, and I will TRY to help answer questions with information i gained at the discussion if folks ask.

Just curious as to why the other thread was deleted? I wanted to go back and re-read Hopemax's posts, as well as others.

 

[tyleet87]

As for the encapsulating, I'm against every aspect of it, and already voiced my opinion on another thread. Tho, from your description, it doesn't sound like they answered any questions/concerns that were brought up in the other thread on here. Maybe, and this is only my opinion, since so many people are against the encasing of pins, they didn't want to attend...again, only my opinion.

I don't know anything about this. Can I get a brief explanation as to why?

 

[unibear]

OK, this may be a silly question but are Holland Hayes and Scoop Sanderson the same person?

 

[Clara9271]

OK, this may be a silly question but are Holland Hayes and Scoop Sanderson the same person?

Yes, same person

 

[Psycho Pixie]

okies. Thank you! lets see if i can help out a bit.

question 1: removing card. The back card of a pin does not prove authenticity. It never has and never will. For many traders it makes the pin "feel" more authentic, but there is nothing preventing someone from taking a random DA (for example) backer card and putting it on a counterfeit pin. The card does not make the pin. i wish it did. That would make all our lives so much simpler.

Question 2 and 3 are rather linked, and I cannot totally answer the question because i do not remember the name of the person who designed the authentication and grading process. I will certainly inquire about that specifically at my next opportunity. I know that right now, they have several people who are involved in the grading process, and they use a series of standardized points to give the pin they look at the over all grade. This is exactly the way Stamp, BaseBall card, and coin expertizers do it. A company will have multiple experts on staff to grade the items submitted.

I do know that tremendous amounts of data and research have gone into understanding the difference between counterfeits and Disney made pins. That information is being used to determine authenticity. Any pin that is counterfeit will not be graded. At all. They will not touch counterfeits. What i took away from this is that they are making a clear, defined line between "scrap" and counterfeits.

Counterfeits are rarely made by the same factory as Disney, if my understanding of the manufacture processes for counterfeits is correct. A Factory that is contracted with Disney to make pins, if CAUGHT making counterfeits, would likely lose the contract, and possibly get put out of business. I could be wrong, but my understanding indicates that NO business would risk that for a few extra bucks. So, the counterfeits out there were not likely to be made at the same China factories.

Scrap, is what we get from the same factory as Disney authentics, they are disney made, but are supposed to be destroyed. Somehow, Scrap pins enter circulation, regardless of how, they do end up out there in trade books, and collections. Those are the ones which I believe you are concerned about correct? If you are concerned about how they distinguish scrap from authentics for grading i can discuss that answer to the best of my ability as well.

 

[Psycho Pixie]

I don't know anything about this. Can I get a brief explanation as to why?

Why encapsulate pins....

Well first, it would only be for the really nice high end, high quality pins. Even an LE100, would likely only have about 5-10 graded and encapsulated. Only the best, most "perfect" of those pins would ever been encapsulated....

Ok awkward word, Encapsulated. lol hunt and peck is not effective with that word!

Lets say, you bought a Sprite Gomes for your collection, not as a trader. You paid the going average rate for this pin. Upon inspection when you get it, you realize that this is quite possibly the BEST Sprite Gomes you have ever seen. There is no underfill, no scratches, no oxidation of the metal. You want to cherish this pin, and protect it.

1. Grading proves it is authentic, and proves that it's condition is pristine.
2. Grading can increase the value of this pin.
3. Almost all graded collectibles are insurable with homeowners policies.
4. Encapsulation provides protection from damage and the elements, including UV.
5. The case which contains the pin has the grade and a seal which is tamper resistant.
6. Most high end collectables have a process in which encapsulation is done. ((IE: Stamps, coins, comic books, sports cards, currency etc...))

Please remember folks, this is what I took away from this discussion, and what I learned today. My husband works in the Stamp grading industry, so he is helping me explain some of these things from that perspective as well.

 

[LuvSimba]

Pixie,

Thank you for taking the time to explain their side of encapsulation. But, it's just not convincing (not shooting the messenger here).

1. Packaging removal, in any other collectible hobby is a big no no. Not sure why it's all of a sudden "OK" in this one. Especially on high end pins. Agreed, any DA card can be applied to another DA pin, but if one has the original card, with matching SKU, matching plastic bag it came in, again with matching SKU, I'd be pretty apt to 'feel' this pin was more real, than one sealed in plastic by some unknown 'authority'. For the life of me, why in the world would anyone want a beautiful PoDM Tangled, with Rapunzel, Flynn and Maximus, removed from it's card and sealed away forever?? In this instance, the card enhances the beauty of the cell. PS..on a side note, if left in the sun, encapsulation would not protect the cell from damage. Not sure why anyone would put said cell in the sun, but stranger things have happened. Same with heat, cold, ect.

2 & 3 Not sure why, but every time the question is asked about who (names) are, the authority making the authentication decisions, it's smoke and mirrors time. I just can't see anyone sending their high end pin, with all it's packaging with matching SKU to some unknown person or persons to be ripped off the card, packaging thrown away and hopefully, it's the same pin, encased. Not sure what the big secret is, unless it was revealed at the panel discussion, who this person or persons are. We just can't seem to get a straight answer. Heck, unless I've missed it, this whole topic isn't even being discussed on Pin Talk. I could be wrong and I have been, but I can't find it.

Lastly, we are talking about China factories here. These are the same factories that picked up and sold scrapped (authentic/real, that didn't meet quality control) pins to buyers, other than Disney. Did Disney pull their contracts from these factories? Anyone know? Now, while I know we won't be encasing hidden mickeys, booster sets pins, ect (for now anyway). Doesn't anyone think it odd that said same, under contract with Disney factory, can't get authentic Hidden Mickey's to the US before the fakers (unauthorized, fakes, not over runs, not lesser quality...but out and out fakes, not real)? So, that would mean, another company/factory would have to go into the original contracted factory, steal the molds/blueprints, make the molds, whatever else and kick the fakes out faster?? Ummm... I really doubt it. So, with that being said, who knows for sure, that 'good' pins are made at different factories than the fakes. Again, China could care less. Companies all over the world have been trying to prosecute China factories for years for this very same thing. Churning out fakes, while making the authentic stuff. Is Disney standing there 24/7, in China, at all the different factories, looking over their shoulders, to make sure someone in the back room isn't using the same molds to churn out fakes...probably not.

 

[Psycho Pixie]

Goods valid points and concerns. will work on answers tomorrow when i get some sleep.

 

[Ksnuggles]

Pixie I was there for Holland's session. My friend was one he gifted a pin to. She squealed.. He is so awesome.

 

[King Niptune]

I saw a few encapsulated pins at the Dayton Disneyana show. I agree that they do look pretty good in their little containers. We didn't get a chance to look at any of the PODMs in person, but unibear and I were told they look awesome and the scenes are crystal clear when encapsulated. The pictures of PODMs on Hakes support that. I don't share the strong concerns that many people seem to have about the grading system and secondary market value.


Also, sent a PP request this morning Pixie.lol

edit: I saw the PODM book in Dayton as well. I really liked the information that was presented and if you are a beginning PODM collector, or somebody that has an interest in PODMs, the book is an amazing resource. I wish that there were even more scenes in the book, but understand Erica couldn't just take pictures from eBay listings and use them in her book (for many reasons). I really liked the charts that included the number of times each character appeared in the cels... very good to know if you are looking for a specific scene.

 

[Psycho Pixie]

Ok, mostly refreshed, lets see what I can do to help answer these concerns.

Pixie,

Thank you for taking the time to explain their side of encapsulation. But, it's just not convincing (not shooting the messenger here).

1. Packaging removal, in any other collectible hobby is a big no no. Not sure why it's all of a sudden "OK" in this one. Especially on high end pins. Agreed, any DA card can be applied to another DA pin, but if one has the original card, with matching SKU, matching plastic bag it came in, again with matching SKU, I'd be pretty apt to 'feel' this pin was more real, than one sealed in plastic by some unknown 'authority'. For the life of me, why in the world would anyone want a beautiful PoDM Tangled, with Rapunzel, Flynn and Maximus, removed from it's card and sealed away forever?? In this instance, the card enhances the beauty of the cell. PS..on a side note, if left in the sun, encapsulation would not protect the cell from damage. Not sure why anyone would put said cell in the sun, but stranger things have happened. Same with heat, cold, etc.

i know you're not trying to shoot me. It is all good. And this conversation needs to happen. I appriciate the calm and comfortable manner that this is happening very much.

Actually, Comic books come in a thin clear plastic sheaf, if in packaging at all, if I remember correctly. When encapsulated they are removed from it, and put into a stronger one with a cardstock insert to keep it from bending. The price and barcode are often a PART of the back or front page of a comic book. Stamps are bought in sheets, then broken down to blocks or singles to be graded then encapsulated. BaseBall and other sports cards often come in sealed mystery bags and boxes and MUST be removed to be seen, graded and encapsulated. Sports memorabilia such as signed balls, helmets and such, are encapsulated as well. Coin and paper currency have no packaging at all, and must be encapsulated to protect them from damage. There ARE collectable items out there which stay with original packaging, but it is more an exception, not a rule. I believe you are thinking of things such as collectable Dolls, which DO stay in original box. However the box in and of itself is a form of encapsulation.

The cases being used do actually protect from UV, which will reduce fading. Of course it won't protect the item from full sun for hours, but it will reduce the effect of UV.

2 & 3 Not sure why, but every time the question is asked about who (names) are, the authority making the authentication decisions, it's smoke and mirrors time. I just can't see anyone sending their high end pin, with all it's packaging with matching SKU to some unknown person or persons to be ripped off the card, packaging thrown away and hopefully, it's the same pin, encased. Not sure what the big secret is, unless it was revealed at the panel discussion, who this person or persons are. We just can't seem to get a straight answer. Heck, unless I've missed it, this whole topic isn't even being discussed on Pin Talk. I could be wrong and I have been, but I can't find it.

Heres some PT threads for you to browse.
Pin Grading Good or Bad?
Hake's Auction sells graded pins

To the best of my knowledge, The folks who make the Tomarts guide are the ones who actually designed the grading system, with the help of a few experts in things such as enameling, and pin manufacture. I was just too tired last night and my brain farted that info into the great beyond until after coffee this morning.

I would like to address a concern you make in the paragraph above a bit more... " hopefully, it's the same pin, encased."

In my experience in retail, and my husbands experience in the Grading/expertizing industry:: It would be incredibly bad business practice, destroy any chance of credibility, AND could result in law suits, or the close of the company, if a pin sent in for grading was "replaced" with a different one and passed off as the one you sent. No intelligent business owner would allow that to happen or EVER condone that type of action in any way. Related note, nor would they allow graders or expertizers to give their friends an unfair marked up grade. But that is a different concern that i can address more in depth later.

Lastly, we are talking about China factories here. These are the same factories that picked up and sold scrapped (authentic/real, that didn't meet quality control) pins to buyers, other than Disney. Did Disney pull their contracts from these factories? Anyone know? Now, while I know we won't be encasing hidden mickeys, booster sets pins, ect (for now anyway). Doesn't anyone think it odd that said same, under contract with Disney factory, can't get authentic Hidden Mickey's to the US before the fakers (unauthorized, fakes, not over runs, not lesser quality...but out and out fakes, not real)? So, that would mean, another company/factory would have to go into the original contracted factory, steal the molds/blueprints, make the molds, whatever else and kick the fakes out faster?? Ummm... I really doubt it. So, with that being said, who knows for sure, that 'good' pins are made at different factories than the fakes. Again, China could care less. Companies all over the world have been trying to prosecute China factories for years for this very same thing. Churning out fakes, while making the authentic stuff. Is Disney standing there 24/7, in China, at all the different factories, looking over their shoulders, to make sure someone in the back room isn't using the same molds to churn out fakes...probably not.

Scrap hidden Mickey pins hit the market before Disney authentics hit the lanyards because disney has them made several months in advance and then schedules the releases in waves. So yes, scrap will get out before the real stuff. So will things like the AP peterpan which was discussed on another thread. Folks pocket the scrap, or sneak the AP's out, sell them and boom we have the resulting mess.

Counterfeits can be made by just about anyone with the right equipment on a small scale. All one needs these days is a good image of the pin for a computer to make a mold and the basic equipment to start pressing those puppies out. I agree, China Factories are definitely a major concern. However I think personally, that they are much less involved in counterfeiting than people think. That is however a personal opinion, based on information i have gathered over the last 3 years or so. I think there are some folks here in the USA making counterfeits as well.

Counterfeits are made from lower quality metal, so weigh a different amount, and the metal can be slightly "off" in color. Counterfeits in general have less detail, mostly because an image was used to make the mold. Counterfeits are often slightly different in size ((I site some of the "Jessica as" jumbo's for example, i have seen several))


***Again folks, please remember that I am NOT an expert, but I do have a few years experience and with the knowledge my husband has gained in the expertizing industry, I feel comfortable helping with all these questions. I am not working with or for pinpics or the grading company they are launching currently, so these are my opinions and what i have taken away from conversations with them. My statements may not be spot on perfect in every single instance, but I am trying very hard to help everyone understand this new aspect of the pin hobby.***

 

[LuvSimba]

Heres some PT threads for you to browse.
Pin Grading Good or Bad?
Hake's Auction sells graded pins***

Thank you for the links. I see I posted on one some time ago..and that's where I must have gotten all fired up over the subject. Too bad my mind didn't recall and I couldn't find the thread. Thank you, I am enjoying the read and see that many others share/shared my same thoughts.

As for all the other answers, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Coins, stamps, baseball cards, are all different collectibles than pins. None come on cards. Most are 'free' or loose. (If comic books come with a generic sleeve, I can understand removing it to place a cardboard insert in to keep from bending it). Tearing stamps apart is something their hobby has done since way before I was born & apparently accepted. And of course one must open a pack of baseball cards to see what's inside (tho I suspect unopened cards from some rare 50 yr old box wouldn't come cheap). Pins can be removed from their original cards for inspection and then returned to their card.

Most hobbies in our price range, dolls, action figures, toys, all are way more valuable in/on their original packaging than their unboxed/loose counter part. Why would pins not be the same? Especially ones with decorated cards? This card removal is just what they have decided to do. Their choice and something I would never purchase. And again, not in the norm of a packaged collectible. Then comes what I said about receiving the same pin I sent in. I'm not saying anyone is switching anything, but it does happen--in many businesses and hobbies. More than people think. There has already been controversy about things in our hobby that I will not go into, but it's been said. Where their is money to be made, unethical things will be done.

I just can't see defending factories in China. They have well known problems and are not the most honest. If real pins are made there, fakes can be made there as well. They already have the molds, color, ect. Other companies may copy them, but it's known that scrap is swept from the real factory floors and marketed here. Just as easy to do that with fakes. And if this encapsulation takes off, one can bet that the high end pins will be faked better than ever. And more of them.. And they don't even have to worry about trying to duplicate the cards, boxes, packaging, ect with SKUs...

I just want others to be informed (see both sides of the pin, as the case may be), so they can make their own decisions on this whole process. It's not all roses as I see the encapsulation supporters trying to paint. They are in it for the money, that's it. Nothing wrong with making money, but it's just seems a bit shady from this 13 year perspective.

Thank you for the drama free discussion. Even tho I might not agree with the subject, it's so much better than those kiddie drama-fests.

 

[Psycho Pixie]

It is totally ok to disagree. All view points need to be aired. I am not defending the china factorys, i am offering an alternative source for the counterfeits.

If anyone else has questions we can continue. if not... at least some questions got mostly answered right?

 

[LuvSimba]

It is totally ok to disagree. All view points need to be aired. I am not defending the china factorys, i am offering an alternative source for the counterfeits.

If anyone else has questions we can continue. if not... at least some questions got mostly answered right?

Oh I'm sure fakes are made all over China, but please don't dismiss that they aren't coming from the same factory as the real thing..

Ahhh...the most important question didn't get answered.... Who is their authenticator? Not, oh someone from Tomarts, someone who is familiar with the pin making process...a name, we need a name so we can determine if this person is qualified to do this job. Pixie, not aimed at you, it's just random 'answers' or replies that have been given/posted by others. Never a direct answer, always smoke and mirrors.

 

[unibear]

Grading proves it is authentic, and proves that it's condition is pristine.

Actually, grading doesn't prove it is an authentic pin. It simply states that the "experts" have judged it likely to be authentic. Perhaps a minor distinction, but it is possible that a really good counterfeit pin comes out and is authenticated and then later we find out the tell-tale signs of what is wrong with the counterfeit pins (which happens from time to time).

Ultimately, the authentication/grading process is no guarantee of an authentic pin. But it certainly makes the likelihood of getting an authentic pin higher.

I think that encapsulating the PODM pins makes the most sense, from a display standpoint. Now these pins stand upright, and you can put a light source behind them to view the cels, and the acrylic has some UV protection to minimize cel fading.