noob asks: should I care?

Getting ready to go to DW in April and decided to get into the pin thing, esp since my nephew and neice are headed to DW in May. I'll try to get some great Tigger pins for me and some Toy Story stuff they'd like and just generally have a good time swapping with folks and CMs.

Then I start reading up on it - to get the where to go and etiquette etc - and I start hearing about counterfeits and scrappers and fakes. WHOA! I sure don't want to get a fake pin - better figure this out.

then I get to reading about it and I see people posting close ups of pins asking "is it for real?" and folks weighing in on it. obviously some fakes are terrible and would be a disappointment and I don't want anything like that.

but honestly - if I have to post a giant pic of a pin and get an expert opinion on whether it's real should I really be that concerned?

in some threads I've seen things posted like "it'd be hard for even an experienced collector to tell." well, if the pin looks that good, that authentic, then why should I care if it's real or not?

obviously Disney should be concerned (loss of revenue) and if someone wants to trade with people who are going to pull out a jeweler's loupe then trading for only authentics is mandatory.

but if you're just having fun at Disney with some pins then is it really that big a deal?

I'm not trying to start something or cause trouble ... but I wonder if I'm missing something here. I'm thinking of going to DW, trading for any pin that looks good to me and not worrying about it... is that dumb to do?

Jabberwocky said:

Nope - it's your money and your collection. Collect whatever you like and makes you happy and don't worry about what other people do or think. It's your collection!

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+1

It's really up to you. If you want to collect pins because they look cool (fake or not), go for it! I'm also a coin collector and I bought a Seated Liberty Dollar from the 1800s for $140 that turned out to be a fake. Knowing that it had been made in the last 10 years in China kind of turned me off. From that moment on I knew that I did NOT have a real piece of history. Another example: I almost bought a Fight Club poster signed by the entire cast. After doing some research, I found that the signatures were forged and being mass produced.

IMO...ignorance is bliss as far as counterfeits go...but I can't help it...I always have to research and know if I have the real deal! (or at least to the best of my knowledge)

I agree 99% with all the statements. BUT....if you plan to trade pins with other traders, please be kind and try not to perpetuate the scrapper problem. Just be as informed as you can and hope for the best. It's a wonderful hobby and don't let the nay-sayers put you off pin collecting and trading. Knowledge is power.

tbhb i have a few fakes in my collection but im not bothered relaly you can hardly tell, and i like them

Hi
First off welcome to DPF,yes trade for what you like
the forum on here does explain alot about scrappers,if not sure
just ask

Judy

I agree, if you are ok with it, I wouldn't worry about it. My boys have some scrappers in their collection that they have traded for (mainly vinylmations) and they could care less. Me? It drives me insane to know that I spent good money on a real pin only to get a piece of junk in return.

I would absolutely NOT buy one of those scrapper lots on ebay (if it's too good to be true, it probably is) and then knowingly trade them in the parks. That drives me insane and trust me, I saw many people who joked about buying the lots on ebay and then trading them for good pins (people actually said this to me at the trading tables at Epcot).

breagirl said:

I agree, if you are ok with it, I wouldn't worry about it. My boys have some scrappers in their collection that they have traded for (mainly vinylmations) and they could care less. Me? It drives me insane to know that I spent good money on a real pin only to get a piece of junk in return.

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I'm not sure I understand "piece of junk"? if I swap for a pin - it appeals to me, looks nice, seems like a good pin - then what makes it a piece of junk if I happen to research its origins and find out it's a scrapper? oh, because it's made in China it is junk? aren't they all made in China?

now if I send a guy money on ebay for a pin and it's not what he represented it to be - it doesn't look like the pic he posts - then I'm ticked. but if you can't tell from a decent visual inspection that it's junk then how it can be junk if I learn its origins? it if looks good on the lanyard how it can be junk?

What makes them counterfeit is that they weren't produced in a Disney-authorized factory with Disney-authorized quality.

The comparison is: if you buy a fake Louis Vuitton purse because you like it, great. If you buy many of them and try to trade them for authentic Gucci purses, that's not ethical (and likely illegal). Same with the pins. If you buy fake ones and like them, then good for you. If you knowingly buy counterfeits (these are the ones on Ebay at $1 each or less) with the intent to trade (with cast members or private traders), then shame.

Hi and welcome to pin trading!

The reason that traders complain about fakes/scrappers/counterfeits, is because a trader does not want to trade a $12.95 pin for a fake pin that costs a dollar. (By the way, fakes are different from scrappers, and scrappers are different from counterfeits.) While you, as a new trader, cannot tell a good pin from a fake pin apart because it may look good to you, there are things that will identify your pin as not being authorized by Disney, such as the color of the paint of the pin, or the back of the pin not saying what it should. Therefore, when you want to trade it to someone, they will get very upset, because they want only pins that are authorized by Disney.

If you plan on keeping every pin you trade for, then it is no problem, so have fun on your trip!

I don't mean to be argumentative and I think I'll refrain from further posts but I don't think the Luis Vuitton analogy works here. LV purses have value because they are LV branded. an LV purse is not just a satchel or bag for a woman to carry stuff in. if that's all a woman wants she can get that much cheaper at Wally World. no, an LV purse makes a statement about it's owner blah blah blah. if an LV purse is revealed as a counterfeit it's owner has to think "if this person noticed it's a fake who else will notice? I need to quit carrying this purse or I'll look like a fool."

Dis pins don't have value because the back of the pin has some copyright info on them. they have value because they look neat on a lanyard. what I'm saying is I don't think that value is compromised if I find out it's a counterfeit or scrapper. does it look good on my lanyard? can it be seen to be something unofficial and not authentic w/o a close up major inspection and examination? again, does it look right on the lanyard? if it does, it's a go. it has value.

again, this obviously doesn't hold for folks who want to trade them where a major exam will be conducted. but for most folks walking the parks, trading with cms and each other ... it seems these pins are good enough for that purpose. thus they aren't junk. they are valuable pins that work for the purposes of pin trading!

finally, buying knowing fakes to trade in for the real thing is not fair and just takes advantage of folks. I have no sympathy for that. but if I have a great Tigger pin it's a great pin whether Dis officially made it or not. as long as it looks real enough to be Tigger, then it's a great pin. it's not junk.

breagirl said:

I agree, if you are ok with it, I wouldn't worry about it. My boys have some scrappers in their collection that they have traded for (mainly vinylmations) and they could care less. Me? It drives me insane to know that I spent good money on a real pin only to get a piece of junk in return.

I would absolutely NOT buy one of those scrapper lots on ebay (if it's too good to be true, it probably is) and then knowingly trade them in the parks. That drives me insane and trust me, I saw many people who joked about buying the lots on ebay and then trading them for good pins (people actually said this to me at the trading tables at Epcot).

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It drives me insane too! I just put someone on my bad traders list cause they sent me the wrong pin and it was scrapper. But that's just what works for me, don't let worrying about scrappers ruin the fun of pin trading for yourself.

On the debate of the thing- The reason it matters to me is because I don't like the idea of getting taken. It's not an issue of quality or whether or not I have the "real deal"...it's because I don't take kindly to bootleggers.

China giving the finger to ALL copyright laws is insulting to me as an artist and a writer. NONE of that money that those bootleggers make go to the original creators. And it's even worse when their listings and such try to pass it off as being official- now, in addition to making profit for NO WORK, they're lying to me and trying to pull the wool over my eyes. It's stealing, and it's insulting to me as a consumer, as well, and morally, I can't accept that.

I just plain don't like the STAGGERING amount of money these people must be making off unethical conduct.

That said- if you're trading off cast lanyards, you're GOING to pull scrappers...even the most practiced eye can't catch them all. So if you want to participate in hidden mickey or cast lanyard trading, you're going to have to figure out a way to deal with the scrappers you acquire (keep them and don't care, trash them, etc.) That's pretty much up to you. It's easy for me to talk, because unless it's a super special pin, I don't bother with hidden mickeys.

But basically, don't let scrappers ruin the hobby. Yeah, it's a pain dealing with them, but I refuse to let unethical people chase me away from something I love.

Finally...

Dis pins don't have value because the back of the pin has some copyright info on them. they have value because they look neat on a lanyard.

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With that logic, art collectors should be fine with acquiring counterfeits, as long as they're really good quality and look neat on the wall.

Also, while the NAME Disney on the back might not create the same value as a high-end fashion piece would, the characters on the front DO create value. After all, it's the character that makes it look "neat on a lanyard"- those characters are their brand. You associate them with memories, character traits you like, etc. Otherwise, you wouldn't bother, unless you really, REALLY liked pins in general.

So you DO like the brand, even if you don't care about the logo on the back, and that carries value.

But really, it's not about the THINGS- all things can be broken down to their original forms...purses are purses are purses. It's about a group of leeches who think they can rock on someone else's dime and churn out a profit with none of the skill or hard work the original creators produced.

These are just my reasons and POV on the subject.

I think Abyssinian28 has explained it better than anyone. I feel exactly the same way about pins that have been released without Disney's permission. Let's give credit where credit is due. And let's be fair to other traders and not trade them something that looks like the real thing, but is not.

This does not mean you cannot have fun in Disney and add any pins you like to your collection. If you do not see a difference, and do not care about the issue we are discussing, then it will not matter to you if you get scrappers or counterfeits. Just enjoy pin collecting for yourself only. We are just saying that it is bad if you try and trade them to other pin collectors.

destiny117 said:

We are just saying that it is bad if you try and trade them to other pin collectors.

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Pretty much sums up my view. If you knowingly buy cheap pins on the auction sites or from a dealer at a flea market to trade, since its near certainty they are fake, it's wrong. But don't stress if the kids pick up one they love, and it happens to be fake... let the kids be happy they found their favorite character or a pin that looks really cool to them, just don't trade it away if they lose interest, discard it in an appropriate manner.

Most of all HAVE FUN TRADING!!! The whole scrapper issue, and the fact that some people invest large amounts of money to aquire vast collections sometimes overshadows the fact pin trading is supposed to be fun and interactive for both guests and CMs.

Be aware of the bad, but don't let it spoil the fun. In the end you can only truly police yourself, be an honest and fair trader, and enjoy.