PinPics - New Format / Big Site Changes!

[stratasfan]

I do want to be clear that I don't believe this to be the fault of any of the PinPics moderators, particularly two of our own DPF members (I'm not sure if we have any other PinPics moderators here). You two are always lovely and do a great job, and have the best intentions in helping the community. You're great at communication and always kind. Just like the recent failings of the Disney company, I believe this to rest squarely on the shoulders of ownership, and not those who simply work for the site. I just no longer want to be afraid of criticizing a site just because of former prestige behind their name. I think they're doing a poor job of being good members of the community and I feel like that should be said.

Whether on DPF or PinPics or PTDB or P&P . . . my intentions are always to improve the pin trading online community and keep it as positive as I can. The world today wallows in too much negativity and it didn't used to be like this. The pin trading community can be positive again. It will take work, but each and every one of us involved has to contribute to that effort. Constructive criticism is always good. But personal attacking without facts from both sides is never good. I've had my ups and downs with PinPics, and you know . . . the best thing to do is ask. One-on-one . . . and if anyone ever wants to ask something about PinPics, I wish you would just send me a personal message and ask. If I don't have answers, I can find out, but I am always willing and open to provide info or even discuss things. Many times, what seems petty or annoying to people often has a good reason behind it.

Good luck. I repeatedly asked them to remove all of my content that they've been monetizing, and they refused. So they're profiting on my content that I provided to previous site owners WITH THE AGREEMENT THAT THE CONTENT WAS FOR FREE PUBLIC/NON-PROFIT/NON-EXCLUSIVE USE without my permission either. Honorable people genuinely out to help the community would not behave this way. They would either remove all my content that they DO NOT HAVE MY PERMISSION TO USE or stop monetizing the site and allow all content to be freely shared as originally created.

The User-generated content in the pin listings has been free and is remaining free. Regardless of charges that may come in the future, the classic features of the database site are remaining free. Monetizing is not being done with the user-generated content of the pin listings features that have always been free. These will remain free and available to the public. So you don't have to worry - your contributed content on any pin listings that you've added or provided information about are still and will continue to be free and available to the public in the same manner as when you were contributing.

I'm so sorry that they're not honoring your wishes. Honestly, I don't expect them to. But I think it's time we stop pretending that they're acting with the best interests of the public and that they're innocent of wrongdoing here. It's been so disappointing watching this downward spiral. The fact that they've threatened legal action against members of their own community over community contributed content is appalling to me.

I'm just glad I realized it before I started adding content to their site. I'll continue to contribute to sites that do not have a clause in their terms that transfers ownership of images and descriptions to themselves.

The legal action threatened was not over user-generated content, but over the violation of copyright with the scraping and linking of the PinPics number associated with a particular pin. This part of the pin listing is not user-contributed and belongs to the owner of the site. Scraping the database or linking numbers on another database is against the Terms of Service. Mass linking is also very bad for a site because the SEO sees that as spam phishing. This has to be addressed, as another database linking to every pin page is detrimental to the online life and health of any website, regardless of copyright or ToS. But those PP numbers are copyrighted and proprietary. PinPics is not in the wrong on this one. It's always good to make sure to understand the full story before posting accusations.

I'm just glad I realized it before I started adding content to their site. I'll continue to contribute to sites that do not have a clause in their terms that transfers ownership of images and descriptions to themselves.

You have never added any information to PinPics???

The last owners were rotten. The new owners I can't say anything good about the site. They've apparently even modified everything. I can't even tell if there's any hope for the site.

Sent from my motorola edge (2022) using Tapatalk

The internet and online world has changed drastically since 1999. Drastically! All those mobile devices everyone loves to use means things have to change and security has to be boosted. Especially since 2020 and the online hacking increase that has led to massive security upgrades being developed. Modifications happen and will continue to happen. Anyone here use a mobile? If you do, then welcome to the change. It's because of that that so much security and change happens. Of course there's hope for the site. Think back to when you were using Windows95 or Windows 98 . . . imagine just jumping into Windows 11. You'd be pretty miserable, but that's basically what had to happen. Well, sites have to attune to the times. That means change, like it or not. Personally, I don't like change. I don't like it at all. When the new site came on, I really didn't want to handle the change. Features weren't where they used to be, things looked different . . . I wasn't willing to let go of the hobby because I refused to adapt to the change. This wasn't a fast thing for me. It happened on another website with another hobby (I know, hard to think of doing something not Disney pin related, right?). I almost walked away from a hobby because a site underwent a major upgrade. But the only way to keep a website functioning to change and update. Everyone who has been a member on DPF since before the hack knows how not updating can cause disastrous results with a site. And once things like that happen, you can't go back to the way things were. This place is living proof.

Is that what's going to happen?

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

No . . .the basic user-contributed database isn't going to charged for. It has been and will remain free to the public. Expanded features and parts of the site may fall under a subscription, but the classic features and database will remain free. Searching, cataloguing, trading, printing your pin lists . . . all those have been and will continue to be free.

I believe it's in reference to them adding ads that pop up very frequently. They make money off of having ads on their site (which is fueled by community added content).

The pop-up ads have been removed. Google ads were added to the site, but the constant pop-ups were something Google chose to implement as part of a "test". They have finally been removed, as they were annoying. A small amount of money is made by Google ads. However, the income generated from those ads wasn't even paying for the base server costs, let alone the software, maintenance, tech time, domain name, hosting costs, etc. So, yes . . .the site has a lot of community added content . . . however, without money, no content can be online. From your comment I assume you have no knowledge of, and never have been involved with, the actual building, maintaining, and hosting a website. It is time-intensive and expensive. (Speaking from personal experience, Sis and I are actually going to have to close down our personal website this year, as the rising server costs have gotten too much for us to handle.) Running Google ads on a site wouldn't pay for the base server and hosting costs, let alone everything else that has to be spent just to get a site online. The previous PinPics owners asked for money to help defray costs . . . Google ads was a way not to have to ask for donations.

Running any web site takes money to run, manage, and protect. From my understanding the basic PinPics will remain free and open. Yes there are adds just like another streaming, web hosting, and other forums unless you pay to avoid the ads. The previous owners asked for donations to help keep up with the required software updates, software licensing costs, and security monitoring costs. The new owners are doing what they can to keep the website afloat while keeping the site in compliance with regulations, which costs money.

Couldn't have said it better myself . . . sites take money. I bet most of you would be surprised at the cost of just hosting this tiny forum with no database. Imagine something the size of PinPics. Then you'll still be shocked at the bill.

I'm personally not super bothered by the ads, so much as I am the claiming of content and the hostility they're displaying over it. If they offered some sort of paid service it wouldn't bother me as much because I get that it's costly on the back end. There are people though who offered their resources like Jabberwocky under the assumption and agreement that they'd remain free to the public and wouldn't be exclusive to the site. That's the other definition of free that I think some people would take umbrage with. Harassing people over content that was given freely to you by the community and that you didn't even create is a bit hypocritical, which is something they've been doing.

My main issue still remains the attitude and entitlement they have over content they didn't create but continue to ask for people's time for. They're trying to gatekeep the efforts of hundreds of people for the past 20+ years who wanted to give information to the community. I think it's in poor spirit and poor form. Either you create all your own content yourself, or you don't try to keep exclusive rights to community-created content.

Glad the ads didn't bother you. There are paid tiers coming, but no classic database features will be included in the paid tiers. All those remain free, as they have always been. As new features are added and the site is expanded, the tiers will help pay for the continued growth and maintenance. Any user who contributed information in the past - that information is still available to the public for free. And you are correct . . . the new owners are trying to gatekeep the efforts of hundreds of people over the past two decades. If someone isn't keeping the database live online and keeping other sites from scraping and copying all that work, then those efforts of hundreds of people over two decades would be lost. Inflation hits everything and as prices rise, so do all the prices having to do with sites. That means that more money is needed to keep PinPics online. Without having to demand a subscription from every single user (and then making all that user-contributed information not free or available to the public), the new owners are actually finding ways to keep PinPics online and all those classic features you like and enjoy free and open to the public! If you don't want to see that information protected and want no sign of money on the site . . . how can the database remain online and accessible to the pin trading community? The only way I can think of is through large private donors/sponsors. I guess PinPics better start thinking of something else, though, because we all know how many of those are floating around out there. If you meet any, please send them along.

Continued in one more post due to posting limitations . . .

 

[stratasfan]

Now, just to close, I'd like to say something that isn't in direct response to a comment, but more general response to the overall feeling of animosity that I feel is being directed to the new owners. As I stated at the beginning, I am not paid by PinPics. Neither is Sis. We are just plain members of the online Disney pin community who are continuing to try and enjoy pin trading via online. We volunteer a lot of time to help the hobby out. This is our happy hobby. We always considered DPF to be a happy place, until the last couple years. And now, to be honest, I've read some comments and descriptive statements about the new owners that I would be horrified to hear spoken in person during the heat of an argument, let alone typed out and posted for posterity. Have any of you actually had a long conversation with the new owners and been honest enough to just ask about the whole vision for PinPics? Sis and I did. Before we got very involved in helping, we asked to have a chat and we came right out and asked . . . Why did they buy PinPics? What was their vision for it? Were they going to charge for the database in the end? Molly and Joe were honest enough to sit and both give us their story, ideas, visions and answers to our questions.

To share a bit from that . . . They got into Disney Pins just like many of us . . . Always loved Disney, got into Funko Pops in a big way, and then someone they knew was into pins and once they discovered pins . . . snowballed right along to bigger dreams! They have collections of their own, and have hosted a weekly live pin sale for over five years now. When handling all the pins, they thought it would be great to have a website for pins like there was a website for Funkos. Someone pointed them to PinPics and they loved it. A good base, plenty of space to add more features . . . just took a while to actually purchase it. All their capitol was sunk into the purchasing of PinPics, and not being millionaires, they have to figure out a way to make it pay for itself. Before it can do that, there was stuff to fix . . . the massive security breach that had happened during the previous owner (where many members, including a lot on here, couldn't even access their own accounts anymore!), software that was so outdated it needed massive upgrading to run. The mobile world who wanted things to be usable on their devices. Years of pin releases that were not on because of poor staffing before they bought it. So many other BTS things, I couldn't begin to list! So, massive amounts of work and a lot of $$s later . . . the new site is launched in March. (OK, so I wasn't too keen on the change, either. However, I said it before - I wasn't willing to give up on the hobby because of my inability to adapt to some change. I adapted . . . I also gave a lot of feedback!)

They love Disney pins. They collect Disney pins. They enjoy Disney pins. They want a place that can have good information, where people can be provided with resources to learn fakes from authentics. They want the hobby to continue, even if the Parks aren't available to a lot of people and even if other online outlets fade. They want the pin community to get to enjoy pins for years to come. They aren't out to destroy other pin sites, they want to keep PinPics online and the information available. This doesn't mean allowing the database to be scraped or lifted. This is protecting the users who continue to help the database grow! As more features are added, some may be monetized, but not the classic database features! Those will remain free and available to the public like they have been. New features and expansions do cost, and some have to be monetized so that PinPics can keep growing and stay online. A lot of you are excited about Google Lens with the App so that you can photograph a pin and it will search the database . . . Google Lens is charged for each time it is used, let alone the licensing. That's why that feature is going to be in a paid tier. But, you can still access the database and search the normal way for free! Personally, we've only seen the new owners trying to make positive changes and steps forward for PinPics. They are fellow pin collectors who want to keep the hobby going as long as possible and regardless of what trading goes on in the Parks!

It was stated today that they are doing a poor job of being good members of the community. I challenge that. That could only be said by someone who has no personal knowledge of the reasons or motives behind actions that they don't even understand. There is a balance between keeping user-generated/community-built content free and available and keeping a massive website online period! The poor members of the pin community are the ones who have tried to underhandedly lift the database information to create other sites.

I would love to see some positivity return to the pin trading community and to DPF. It used to be a super fun and happy place to spend time. As always, if anyone has an issue or question, I'd love to discuss it or help out privately. Getting personal and attacking is never the way to go about it. Discussion often can bridge what seems to be an immense gap. Getting personal only makes the divide larger. In something that should be a happy hobby, it is this constant and venomous type of negativity that is killing the very hobby and community. Making comments like this is, in my view, inappropriate at any time. But to admit that you don't support the site in any way, have never contributed and just take, take, take . . . and then complain in such a negative, public way. Where's the good of that? Where's the value of that?

Sis and I are just two of the many users who have built up the database over the years. We both hope to continue on so, and personally - I only see improvement with the new owners versus the previous one. I don't mean I love every detail of the site design or functions . . . but lay out all the pros and cons and I definitely have more pros than cons. The site works. I get notifications for trade requests, Feedback has been added so you can review traders, I can send in additional info and it is added, I can submit a pin and it is actually online in days versus months (or never), the inactive users are no longer displayed in the pin Trades/Wants ratios, I have a technical problem and send an email and I actually get help back!

Sorry to be so long, but there was a lot to reply to. And I'm really sorry that anything like this ever happened on DPF. I was always proud of being a member here, but this makes me feel embarrassed to admit it.

 

[hopemax]

FWIW, I maintain 2 accounts because I have a very large collection (over 15,000 pins) and my wants list is also quite extensive. So I keep the most wanted pins (1700ish) on my main account and use the secondary (different email and password) for additional wants.

Today, I accepted the acknowledgement on my primary account. However, when I try to login to my secondary account on Edge or Firefox it just gives me error messages and too many redirect notices. I have deleted my cookies multiple times in both browsers, and still just goes into a redirect loop. I can not get past this. It cycles between the "edit user" URL and the "acknowledge copyright" URL.

But here's my concern. Like I said my Owns list is over 15,000 pins. My wants list on my other account is over 12,000 pins. Periodically, I go through the database looking for things I have not marked, which involves looking at hundreds of pages in quick succession. Sometimes I build wants lists I can print off for easy reference, and I'll copy and save pictures to do so. This can result in many, many hits on Pinpics.com in a short period of time for legitimate collecting purposes and after reading the copyright acknowledgement, could easily be branded violations because I am hitting the site that hard, and to save things offline. It is going to take *a lot* of database improvement to make the search and print options adequate in the number of ways that someone with a 15,000 pin collection and 12,000 wants would need. Because of so many photos over the years, in 2024 I was going to a complete reinventory of my collection and traders, but now I have fear. Visually look at all 15,000 pins to make sure I know what is and isn't in Pinpics because so much has been missing over the last several years. And it seems like if I wanted to literally hand type my Pinpics lists into my own personal Excel file, which would require clicking through each of the 15,000 pins I own, plus wants and trades, these actions would look like the "scraping" that Pinpics seems so eager to combat... especially now with competitive sites out there. Which goes to one of the points I made years ago... everyone has ideas of how things are going to work, but when someone with a large collection comes along it reveals inadequacies.

EDIT: And as an example, I tried to use the print view on my collection of 15,000+ pins... I got a 500 server error.

Last random thing. I've never been on a website professional or hobby related that relies so much on adequate photos that forces photos into a set height & width and skews the photos so badly as Pinpics does now on the Gallery pages. Of all the reasons to stop using Pinpics, this may be the most annoying IMO, because I never encounter it anywhere else. All other sites understand that photos need to look correct at all times. Not just when you click through.

 

[MollyAnne]

FWIW, I maintain 2 accounts because I have a very large collection (over 15,000 pins) and my wants list is also quite extensive. So I keep the most wanted pins (1700ish) on my main account and use the secondary (different email and password) for additional wants.

Today, I accepted the acknowledgement on my primary account. However, when I try to login to my secondary account on Edge or Firefox it just gives me error messages and too many redirect notices. I have deleted my cookies multiple times in both browsers, and still just goes into a redirect loop. I can not get past this. It cycles between the "edit user" URL and the "acknowledge copyright" URL.

But here's my concern. Like I said my Owns list is over 15,000 pins. My wants list on my other account is over 12,000 pins. Periodically, I go through the database looking for things I have not marked, which involves looking at hundreds of pages in quick succession. Sometimes I build wants lists I can print off for easy reference, and I'll copy and save pictures to do so. This can result in many, many hits on Pinpics.com in a short period of time for legitimate collecting purposes and after reading the copyright acknowledgement, could easily be branded violations because I am hitting the site that hard, and to save things offline. It is going to take *a lot* of database improvement to make the search and print options adequate in the number of ways that someone with a 15,000 pin collection and 12,000 wants would need. Because of so many photos over the years, in 2024 I was going to a complete reinventory of my collection and traders, but now I have fear. Visually look at all 15,000 pins to make sure I know what is and isn't in Pinpics because so much has been missing over the last several years. And it seems like if I wanted to literally hand type my Pinpics lists into my own personal Excel file, which would require clicking through each of the 15,000 pins I own, plus wants and trades, these actions would look like the "scraping" that Pinpics seems so eager to combat... especially now with competitive sites out there. Which goes to one of the points I made years ago... everyone has ideas of how things are going to work, but when someone with a large collection comes along it reveals inadequacies.

EDIT: And as an example, I tried to use the print view on my collection of 15,000+ pins... I got a 500 server error.

Last random thing. I've never been on a website professional or hobby related that relies so much on adequate photos that forces photos into a set height & width and skews the photos so badly as Pinpics does now on the Gallery pages. Of all the reasons to stop using Pinpics, this may be the most annoying IMO, because I never encounter it anywhere else. All other sites understand that photos need to look correct at all times. Not just when you click through.

Hi Hopemax! I will talk to our programmer about the image issuesl Can you email me some examples as you see them at molly@pinpics.com? Have you used the new Print functions? You can drill down in your collections and print out by group - like for example let's say you collect Haunted Mansion. You could go in and search Haunted Mansion in your Owns, press the print icon, the file downloads and you can save it as My HM Collection or whatever you choose on the device you downloaded it to. You can do the same thing in your wants. I am going to be adding some new videos to our Youtube channel and go over this with the new look.
As far as you hitting it hard....we now have something in place that will help us and the system to tell between suspicious activity and just a user using the system hard.
Let me know what on the search do you see that needs improving - we love the feedback. I am going to do a new video - a short one - on how to search with the best results. We also have many on our team that are awesome at this......the search is really simplified. Email me at molly@pinpics.com. It is frustrating to me that items we fix or change are seen by many as amazing improvements and by others as not adequate. That is why I need your feedback because you are probably not the only person that has that frustration. Email me at molly@pinpics.com. You have a massive collection and are a super user so I would love to have some correspondence with you. Molly

 

[rik1138]

The database is user-built. Nobody is claiming that the minute you put up a pin listing on PinPics you are not allowed to enter that pin on another database. If you took the picture, you can post it somewhere else. I actually posted some pins a couple of weeks ago, and turned right around and added them to Pin & Pop. My pics, my descriptions, my gathered info. I could post it wherever I wanted to. What I can't do, however, is take information that I did not personally take/write and post that on another database. Copying listings from PinPics to put on another site is not allowed. A lot of you might not know this, but there have been several instances where people building up other pin sites have been scraping (copying) the information from the PinPics database. Also, other sites linking the PinPics number on their own site for each pin. The PinPics number is not user-contributed or user-generated. The PinPics number is copyrighted and proprietary.

A couple of things to note on this...
The ORIGINAL PinPics actually did allow ALL of these. The original terms of service stated someone could take the entire database for any purpose, including making another pin-collecting database, as long as it was not a commercial venture (so another free, ad-less collecting database site was fine), and the images were NEVER watermarked, as PinPics understood THEY did not own them in any way. So all pins, pictures, and the data entered into the site before it was sold the first time were entered under the assumption that the entire database was essentially public domain.

They specifically put a 'weak restriction' (their words) on the content added to the site to help promote pin trading and getting info out there.

So there is a huge portion of the database that submitters could probably legally challenge as to whether the new PP can make any claims of illegal copying/scraping all the text information, as it is, by the terms when it was submitted, public domain. (Although there probably aren't many people from back then around anymore that are into the hobby these days...)

Right after PinPics was sold, someone created a new database website called Disney Pin Place and used the entire database, as it was public domain at the time (I think people hated the new site/owners right from the start as it was immediately obvious all they wanted was money. I think you had to pay to even see images of the pins larger than a thumbnail right after they took it over). The new PP owners quickly changed the terms of service, and THEN started threatening lawsuits against anyone copying THEIR information... And people that requested that their information (that they added to the database assuming it would always be free) was removed were ignored. (And I guess no one actually cared enough to sue them, people just stopped using the site... I remember a time when it was a race to get to PinPics first to enter a newly announced pin so your name would permanently be on the 'submitted by' field... I lost that race so many times! It never took more than 30 minutes for every new pin in an announcement to be added to the site...) Then they instantly wanted everyone to pay an annual fee to use the site, and basically everyone left...

I guess that's the beginning of the stigma the current owners are trying to dig themselves out from under, but maybe not the right way (just basing on what people are saying here, I've had no interaction with them...)



Also- just an observation from someone who is NOT a lawyer or copyright attorney of any kind, but I'm pretty sure you can't copyright a number, in any situation. This is the reason the 486 cpu chip was not upgraded to a '586' chip, but a chip we now know as the 'Pentium' processor. Intel couldn't copyright '486' to prevent rivals from using the 486 number on their CPU chips, so they called their next chip Pentium and copyrighted the hell out of it...
But just a number, no matter how it's created, I don't think can be copyrighted. Maybe PP12888 could be, but just 12888 can't be. So another database making a reference to the PP numbers I don't think you can stop.

 

[MollyAnne]

A couple of things to note on this...
The ORIGINAL PinPics actually did allow ALL of these. The original terms of service stated someone could take the entire database for any purpose, including making another pin-collecting database, as long as it was not a commercial venture (so another free, ad-less collecting database site was fine), and the images were NEVER watermarked, as PinPics understood THEY did not own them in any way. So all pins, pictures, and the data entered into the site before it was sold the first time were entered under the assumption that the entire database was essentially public domain.

They specifically put a 'weak restriction' (their words) on the content added to the site to help promote pin trading and getting info out there.

So there is a huge portion of the database that submitters could probably legally challenge as to whether the new PP can make any claims of illegal copying/scraping all the text information, as it is, by the terms when it was submitted, public domain. (Although there probably aren't many people from back then around anymore that are into the hobby these days...)

Right after PinPics was sold, someone created a new database website called Disney Pin Place and used the entire database, as it was public domain at the time (I think people hated the new site/owners right from the start as it was immediately obvious all they wanted was money. I think you had to pay to even see images of the pins larger than a thumbnail right after they took it over). The new PP owners quickly changed the terms of service, and THEN started threatening lawsuits against anyone copying THEIR information... And people that requested that their information (that they added to the database assuming it would always be free) was removed were ignored. (And I guess no one actually cared enough to sue them, people just stopped using the site... I remember a time when it was a race to get to PinPics first to enter a newly announced pin so your name would permanently be on the 'submitted by' field... I lost that race so many times! It never took more than 30 minutes for every new pin in an announcement to be added to the site...) Then they instantly wanted everyone to pay an annual fee to use the site, and basically everyone left...

I guess that's the beginning of the stigma the current owners are trying to dig themselves out from under, but maybe not the right way (just basing on what people are saying here, I've had no interaction with them...)



Also- just an observation from someone who is NOT a lawyer or copyright attorney of any kind, but I'm pretty sure you can't copyright a number, in any situation. This is the reason the 486 cpu chip was not upgraded to a '586' chip, but a chip we now know as the 'Pentium' processor. Intel couldn't copyright '486' to prevent rivals from using the 486 number on their CPU chips, so they called their next chip Pentium and copyrighted the hell out of it...
But just a number, no matter how it's created, I don't think can be copyrighted. Maybe PP12888 could be, but just 12888 can't be. So another database making a reference to the PP numbers I don't think you can stop.

rik1138 - Go and read the Terms of Service on all of the pin websites. They are all the same.

 

[brattyjedi]

Just to add some information so everyone is on the same page …

The earliest pinpics terms of service I can find is 2001. Pinpics did claim ownership of anything uploaded to the site including images but also said anyone could take anything on the site including images for any non-commercial use.

So this from the current terms of service:
All content on the PinPics web site and App, including but not limited to pin images, pin identification number and pin descriptions; may ONLY be used, linked to or copied if you have the express written permission of Pin Pics management.

Is clearly at odds with this from the earliest I found:
Our policy is that any content, including pin images, may be used or copied by anyone for any NON-COMMERCIAL purpose as long as appropriate attribution is made to Pin Pics.

Anyone who uploaded anything under the old terms of service has a valid argument that this change is not what they authorized for their content.

Pin Pics: Terms Of Use

The Ultimate Interactive Disney Pin Trading Information Repository

web.archive.org

 

[maiarebecca]

rik1138 - Go and read the Terms of Service on all of the pin websites. They are all the same.

From pinpics:

“Any User Generated Content added to this website becomes the Copyrighted intellectual property of Pin Pics and can be used only by Pin Pics without restriction.”

From pin and pop:

“P&P does not claim ownership of the materials you provide to pinandpop.com (including feedback and suggestions) or post, upload, input or submit to any P&P Site or our associated services (collectively "Submissions").”

 

[rik1138]

From pinpics:

“Any User Generated Content added to this website becomes the Copyrighted intellectual property of Pin Pics and can be used only by Pin Pics without restriction.”

From pin and pop:

“P&P does not claim ownership of the materials you provide to pinandpop.com (including feedback and suggestions) or post, upload, input or submit to any P&P Site or our associated services (collectively "Submissions").”

Right, and that's new terminology for PinPics with the original sale of the site (not the current owners, although they have kept it in place). Prior to that, as someone else mentioned, it did NOT say 'only by PinPics'. The original PP terms of service:

Terms 2002:

Our policy is that any content, including pin images, may be used or copied by anyone for any NON-COMMERCIAL purpose as long as appropriate attribution is made to Pin Pics. One of the goals of this site is to promote information about pin trading, and one of the ways we do this is by placing this very weak restriction on the content of this site.

This was that terms of service in 2013 (after the site had been sold to someone else, but before DPP was created):

Terms 2013:

Our policy is that any content including pin images, with the exception of blogs and blog images, may be used or copied by anyone for any NON-COMMERCIAL purpose as long as appropriate attribution is made to Pin Pics.

(Bold section is how it appears on the PP website)
A change made once a PP blog was created to protect their own PinPics created content. Fair enough.
The terms of service in 2014, after DPP was created and basically threatened to cause PP to be largely unused since they were now trying to charge people for access to the site:

Terms 2014:

User Generated Content, including but not limited to pin images and pin descriptions, may ONLY be used or copied if you have the express written permission of Pin Pics. Permission may be sought at info@pinpics.com.

(That first sentence is underlined in the terms of service by PP to draw attention to it.)

So all of sudden the public domain, 'can be used or copied by anyone' that was the reason so many people were willing to submit information to the site has now been removed, and PP is basically claiming ownership of the entire database and refusing to let anyone use it for 'any non-commercial purpose' as it had been for for the 13+ years it had been before... And simply because someone decided to make a better pin collecting website using the existing, free for anyone to use, database, and make it easy to transfer your owns/wants/traders over to the new site. In a matter of minutes you could have your entire collection duplicated on DPP, which was committed to remaining free and for the public use.
That change was a HUGE killer for people that liked to submit information to the site. Most people had already started using the site less and less once it became pay-to-use (or pay to access all of the information). Then, about 1 1/2 - 2 years later, PP bought out DPP from its creator and deleted it from the internet, and I think a lot of people just didn't bother returning to PP... Certainly not freely providing information to the site now that the owners only wanted to sell that information...

And while PTDB has a similar restriction in their Terms, when the site was created it was declared here that the information would always be free and public. There's a pin collecting iPhone app that wanted to use PTDB's database to populate the app, and as far as I know PTDB had no issue with that...

 

[hopemax]

@MollyAnne my interest level in Pinpics improvement diminishes with each passing day. I posted many, many pages back when you acquired the site the history between the users and previous ownership, and the challenges new ownership would face. I tried to give new Pinpics the benefit of the doubt with the rollout of the new site, but the elimination of key features like the comparison tools and the surprise that accompanied the predictable response from users to its removal eroded both my trust and confidence further. It may be back now, but it was such an important feature the removal itself invites questions. Unfortunately, the Pinpics we started out with when it was Britt Yenne's and now, has lost too many "useful to me" features with each redesign and too much hand slapping in response to complaints made here and elsewhere after the rollout. This is to say, I'm not interested in private communications outside of things like basic account functionality. The ship has sailed, and if that makes me another mean DPFer or whatever derogatory term was used to describe DPF members on a video, so be it. I doubt I'm the only one who has these feelings and this level of apathy among its users is one of Pinpics biggest issues, and why people are so willing to use other sites, and no terms of service can fix that.

This is an example of some of the things I see on the Gallery pages (note: the search parameter was "One Family"). It's a result of the aspect ratio of the photo not matching the aspect ratio of the space allotted to individual images as defined in the CSS or site structure, and probably the aspect ratio of my displays. This is why site developers set breakpoints, and fiddle extensively with their CSS and layout / template files. These are some of the most egregious examples, but any time the image would naturally overflow the allotted space, it smushes it either vertically or horizontally, distorting the final image. Sometimes the images look ever so slightly off, but when you own the real pin its obvious when a pin image looks squatty. There are those people that didn't mind the bendy Eiffel Tower in Soarin' Around the World, but I look at something like this and it drives me batty, first because it's so obviously incorrect and can be a deterrent to properly identifying your pin, and second that either nobody noticed or deemed it important enough to point it out to the programmer.



And the same pins on my iPhone.

 

[hopemax]

Also, looking at the new site, My Pin Central's TOS they also don't claim ownership of user submitted content which they call Contributions. Only that by submitting content you give them a license to do what they wish with it. Even on their pin page image copyright it makes reference to this license. This matches what I have seen on non-pin websites that rely on user submitted content, such as this one my DH uses for his board game collection. Section 5 of Terms of Service | BoardGameGeek

7. CONTRIBUTION LICENSE​

By posting your Contributions to any part of the Site or making Contributions accessible to the Site by linking your account from the Site to any of your social networking accounts, you automatically grant, and you represent and warrant that you have the right to grant, to us an unrestricted, unlimited, irrevocable, perpetual, non-exclusive, transferable, royalty-free, fully-paid, worldwide right, and license to host, use, copy, reproduce, disclose, sell, resell, publish, broadcast, retitle, archive, store, cache, publicly perform, publicly display, reformat, translate, transmit, excerpt (in whole or in part), and distribute such Contributions (including, without limitation, your image and voice) for any purpose, commercial, advertising, or otherwise, and to prepare derivative works of, or incorporate into other works, such Contributions, and grant and authorize sublicenses of the foregoing. The use and distribution may occur in any media formats and through any media channels.

This license will apply to any form, media, or technology now known or hereafter developed, and includes our use of your name, company name, and franchise name, as applicable, and any of the trademarks, service marks, trade names, logos, and personal and commercial images you provide. You waive all moral rights in your Contributions, and you warrant that moral rights have not otherwise been asserted in your Contributions.

We do not assert any ownership over your Contributions. You retain full ownership of all of your Contributions and any intellectual property rights or other proprietary rights associated with your Contributions. We are not liable for any statements or representations in your Contributions provided by you in any area on the Site. You are solely responsible for your Contributions to the Site and you expressly agree to exonerate us from any and all responsibility and to refrain from any legal action against us regarding your Contributions.

We have the right, in our sole and absolute discretion, (1) to edit, redact, or otherwise change any Contributions; (2) to re-categorize any Contributions to place them in more appropriate locations on the Site; and (3) to pre-screen or delete any Contributions at any time and for any reason, without notice. We have no obligation to monitor your Contributions.

 

[MollyAnne]

I realize that there is no middle ground here....When we acquired the site we were so surprised at the negativity that got lumped on us. We soldiered on. Knowing that is was left over from the previous ownership. I am sorry that when we launched the new site in March the compare function was not part of the site. We had beta users, that were huge users of this feature that did not realize it was not there. We cannot go back and change that.....I apologize to you hopemax. Joe and I are good people....I find it alarming how judgements are made when you have never met us, come to one our Thursday Zooms. We are not the evil empire. What we did was take an archaic site with a database in shambles and have spent the last 2.5 years fixing it....and we are still fixing it.
The site is FREE and in it's current form it will always be free. We are adding some amazing features and are rolling out an app. The app will be in beta before the end of January.
Here is Pin and Pops terms below....Under the title

No Unlawful or Prohibited Use/Intellectual Property​

All content included as part of the Service, such as text, graphics, logos, images, as well as the compilation thereof, and any software used on the Site, is the property of P&P or its suppliers and protected by copyright and other laws that protect intellectual property and proprietary rights. You agree to observe and abide by all copyright and other proprietary notices, legends or other restrictions contained in any such content and will not make any changes thereto.

You will not modify, publish, transmit, reverse engineer, participate in the transfer or sale, create derivative works, or in any way exploit any of the content, in whole or in part, found on the Site. P&P content is not for resale. Your use of the Site does not entitle you to make any unauthorized use of any protected content, and in particular you will not delete or alter any proprietary rights or attribution notices in any content. You will use protected content solely for your personal use, and will make no other use of the content without the express written permission of P&P and the copyright owner. You agree that you do not acquire any ownership rights in any protected content. We do not grant you any licenses, express or implied, to the intellectual property of P&P or our licensors except as expressly authorized by these Terms.

 

[rik1138]

This is an example of some of the things I see on the Gallery pages (note: the search parameter was "One Family"). It's a result of the aspect ratio of the photo not matching the aspect ratio of the space allotted to individual images as defined in the CSS or site structure, and probably the aspect ratio of my displays. This is why site developers set breakpoints, and fiddle extensively with their CSS and layout / template files. These are some of the most egregious examples, but any time the image would naturally overflow the allotted space, it smushes it either vertically or horizontally, distorting the final image. Sometimes the images look ever so slightly off, but when you own the real pin its obvious when a pin image looks squatty. There are those people that didn't mind the bendy Eiffel Tower in Soarin' Around the World, but I look at something like this and it drives me batty, first because it's so obviously incorrect and can be a deterrent to properly identifying your pin, and second that either nobody noticed or deemed it important enough to point it out to the programmer.

Oh yeah, good thing to point out...
I actually ran into this problem just last night trying to locate a pin. It's an oval shaped pin in a horizontal layout, so I did a simple search and was just scanning the images looking for it. I over looked it twice because the thumbnail image makes it look almost like a circle as someone uploaded it cropped to the pins dimensions (not square), so the site squished it into a square...
Just do a search for 'Luxo Jr', and it's the middle pin on the bottom row (PP77305). I was looking for a long oblong pin, just took me a few glances to realize that was it...

PTDB gets around this issue by forcing you to create a perfectly square image for the thumbnail. That solves the aspect ratio issue, but if people don't pre-prepare their image for a square crop, they end up cropping the image for the thumbnail...

I feel like both sites could benefit from just taking the submitted image, and adding white space around the image to make it square, rather than cropping it or squishing it. Or just resizing the image into the thumbnail space without changing the aspect ratio, so you might have empty space around the image, but that's okay as long as the image looks correct... Especially on a website that is basically image-centric... The display of the images should be a high priority.
Just a matter of finding the best solution for displaying non-square images in a square space.

 

[MollyAnne]

Also - go read about the Intellectual Property Rights in My Pin Central's Terms.

 

[hopemax]

I feel like both sites could benefit from just taking the submitted image, and adding white space around the image to make it square, rather than cropping it or squishing it. Or just resizing the image into the thumbnail space without changing the aspect ratio, so you might have empty space around the image, but that's okay as long as the image looks correct... Especially on a website that is basically image-centric... The display of the images should be a high priority.
Just a matter of finding the best solution for displaying non-square images in a square space.

This is what the previous version of Pinpics used to do, I think. We are ultimately at the mercy of the skill level of the programmer. But as a user, I feel like it is not unreasonable to expect some basic functionality. One of those being the picture looks correct.

 

[MollyAnne]

Oh yeah, good thing to point out...
I actually ran into this problem just last night trying to locate a pin. It's an oval shaped pin in a horizontal layout, so I did a simple search and was just scanning the images looking for it. I over looked it twice because the thumbnail image makes it look almost like a circle as someone uploaded it cropped to the pins dimensions (not square), so the site squished it into a square...
Just do a search for 'Luxo Jr', and it's the middle pin on the bottom row (PP77305). I was looking for a long oblong pin, just took me a few glances to realize that was it...

PTDB gets around this issue by forcing you to create a perfectly square image for the thumbnail. That solves the aspect ratio issue, but if people don't pre-prepare their image for a square crop, they end up cropping the image for the thumbnail...

I feel like both sites could benefit from just taking the submitted image, and adding white space around the image to make it square, rather than cropping it or squishing it. Or just resizing the image into the thumbnail space without changing the aspect ratio, so you might have empty space around the image, but that's okay as long as the image looks correct... Especially on a website that is basically image-centric... The display of the images should be a high priority.
Just a matter of finding the best solution for displaying non-square images in a square space.

We are talking to our programmer about the images. This was supposed to be fixed and I appreciate you bringing it to our attention Hopemax.

 

[MollyAnne]

This is what the previous version of Pinpics used to do, I think. We are ultimately at the mercy of the skill level of the programmer. But as a user, I feel like it is not unreasonable to expect some basic functionality. One of those being the picture looks correct.

I totally agree with you Hopemax.

 

[rik1138]

I realize that there is no middle ground here....When we acquired the site we were so surprised at the negativity that got lumped on us. We soldiered on. Knowing that is was left over from the previous ownership. I am sorry that when we launched the new site in March the compare function was not part of the site. We had beta users, that were huge users of this feature that did not realize it was not there. We cannot go back and change that.....I apologize to you hopemax. Joe and I are good people....I find it alarming how judgements are made when you have never met us, come to one our Thursday Zooms. We are not the evil empire. What we did was take an archaic site with a database in shambles and have spent the last 2.5 years fixing it....and we are still fixing it.
The site is FREE and in it's current form it will always be free. We are adding some amazing features and are rolling out an app. The app will be in beta before the end of January.
Here is Pin and Pops terms below....Under the title

No Unlawful or Prohibited Use/Intellectual Property​

All content included as part of the Service, such as text, graphics, logos, images, as well as the compilation thereof, and any software used on the Site, is the property of P&P or its suppliers and protected by copyright and other laws that protect intellectual property and proprietary rights. You agree to observe and abide by all copyright and other proprietary notices, legends or other restrictions contained in any such content and will not make any changes thereto.

You will not modify, publish, transmit, reverse engineer, participate in the transfer or sale, create derivative works, or in any way exploit any of the content, in whole or in part, found on the Site. P&P content is not for resale. Your use of the Site does not entitle you to make any unauthorized use of any protected content, and in particular you will not delete or alter any proprietary rights or attribution notices in any content. You will use protected content solely for your personal use, and will make no other use of the content without the express written permission of P&P and the copyright owner. You agree that you do not acquire any ownership rights in any protected content. We do not grant you any licenses, express or implied, to the intellectual property of P&P or our licensors except as expressly authorized by these Terms.

I think the biggest problem here is that PinPics was STARTED with the idea that the database would be public property, free for any one to use, download, copy, etc, and was run that way for at least 14 years.

Then, when the site was sold the first time, the terms were changed making it all basically PP's property that no one could touch without permission.

Every other site was STARTED with the terms of service saying whatever they say now (I think)... So everyone knows from the start how their submitted information is being used... So using them as an example of how 'other sites do it' isn't really relevant.
I know this issue wasn't caused by you, you just bought into it (maybe without realizing it). But as I mentioned before, that's the stigma that surrounds PP in general.

Probably the only way to truly resolve that would be to embrace the idea of honest competition, rather than trying to protect your site with legal copyright claims...
Make the database 100% public domain again, allow people to copy it and make their own pin collecting website if they want. Then focus on making PP the BEST SITE to use. If someone copies the database and makes a site that people like, make them like yours more. You already have a head start of hundreds (thousands?) of users with their collections all setup here (and for people with large pin collections, moving to a new site would be a huge hassle), so you just have to make sure people like using the site and it will be hard for anyone else to compete...
I would really focus on things like site usability above all else. If people are complaining about things not working right (or not being there at all), work on that before things like 'amazing features' and mobile apps.

Unfortunately one of the biggest problems with Disney pin collecting now is that there isn't a complete pin database anywhere. Every site is missing pins, has some others don't, etc... Even just looking at pins from the last 5 years (going back 20 it gets even worse, although PP is probably the most complete with the older pins). Fixing that would be the biggest challenge of any pin collecting site...

(Disclaimer - I'm not a heavy trader, so I don't know personally what people don't like about the site, just commenting on what I'm reading in this thread... My only real complaint is that 'DSF' and 'DSSH' are still two different categories in the Origin column... Makes trying to find pins released at that store difficult sometimes as both are the same location, they just changed the name of the store... )

 

[maiarebecca]

I realize that there is no middle ground here....When we acquired the site we were so surprised at the negativity that got lumped on us. We soldiered on. Knowing that is was left over from the previous ownership. I am sorry that when we launched the new site in March the compare function was not part of the site. We had beta users, that were huge users of this feature that did not realize it was not there. We cannot go back and change that.....I apologize to you hopemax. Joe and I are good people....I find it alarming how judgements are made when you have never met us, come to one our Thursday Zooms. We are not the evil empire. What we did was take an archaic site with a database in shambles and have spent the last 2.5 years fixing it....and we are still fixing it.
The site is FREE and in it's current form it will always be free. We are adding some amazing features and are rolling out an app. The app will be in beta before the end of January.
Here is Pin and Pops terms below....Under the title

No Unlawful or Prohibited Use/Intellectual Property​

All content included as part of the Service, such as text, graphics, logos, images, as well as the compilation thereof, and any software used on the Site, is the property of P&P or its suppliers and protected by copyright and other laws that protect intellectual property and proprietary rights. You agree to observe and abide by all copyright and other proprietary notices, legends or other restrictions contained in any such content and will not make any changes thereto.

You will not modify, publish, transmit, reverse engineer, participate in the transfer or sale, create derivative works, or in any way exploit any of the content, in whole or in part, found on the Site. P&P content is not for resale. Your use of the Site does not entitle you to make any unauthorized use of any protected content, and in particular you will not delete or alter any proprietary rights or attribution notices in any content. You will use protected content solely for your personal use, and will make no other use of the content without the express written permission of P&P and the copyright owner. You agree that you do not acquire any ownership rights in any protected content. We do not grant you any licenses, express or implied, to the intellectual property of P&P or our licensors except as expressly authorized by these Terms.

Just FYI, this section is about intellectual property and not about the user provided data, but if you want to see the section of their T&C which is relevant to this discussion I provided it a few posts up.

 

[stratasfan]

I've read all the responses, and boiling it down, it seems that the general consensus here is that any person on the globe should be allowed and encouraged to copy any and all information and pictures from PinPics and start their own database and never worry about being contacted about lifting a database to creating something with someone else's work and resources.

Since it was stated that Pin Trading Database is OK with this, that means that hypothetically - someone could go and copy all the pins in PTDB or P&P and add them to PP and there would be no issue whatsoever? I bet there would be an issue.

Personally, as a very active user and contributor, I would be absolutely against this and appreciate the fact that this is protected from happening. I can choose to contribute to any site or multiples sites as I wish, but I'd like to contribute to the ones that make me happy while I'm doing it. Of course, if I change years from now and go to a different site, would I expect to have my own work transferred? No. And what you are all saying goes for that, too . . . If you want your information on all databases, sit at your computer and add it to all of them. Easy way to make sure it is everywhere!

About the Terms of Service from 2002 - That's 21 years ago! Times have changed and the online world has become unrecognizable from what it was back in the dark ages of 2002. People have changed, online security has changed and the amount of cyber crime has escalated beyond the charts back then. No comparison. Besides, that was multiple owners ago. I'm also getting the feeling here that a lot of the previous owner's problems and faults are being lumped in on the new owners. Any argument using ToS from 2002 is lost already. That was decades ago and many owners ago. The internet was different and the people were different.

A last note on sites that most of you might not be aware of . . . in the last two years, the prices of basic hosting costs has raised 3-5 times what it was in 2020. That's enormous! So a small site that would have cost $500 a year for basic hosting (no images, mind you) now costs $1,500 to $2,500 a year for the same basic hosting plan.

@hopemax The Compare feature was brought to the forefront of the conversation. I was probably more upset than you were when it was no longer there. I'm sure that Molly was super tired of my constant emails and feedback, too. However, I sent in feedback, I gave detailed explanations of what it was like, how it worked, what it looked like, etc. Even arranged to have a Zoom meeting with the programmer to describe it! It was recreated and reinstated. So, maybe I was really annoyed for a few months, but I was even happier when it came back, as it was something I really worked for! The number one tool, for my style of online pint trading. <3

 

[MollyAnne]

Just FYI, this section is about intellectual property and not about the user provided data, but if you want to see the section of their T&C which is relevant to this discussion I provided it a few posts up.

Right....but read the fine print. They are saying everything "the Content" is theirs. Photographs is part of that and any part of the database meaning descriptions and information. They are saying that if you take the picture you can still use it for personal use because it is your picture......we say the same thing. That is why the database is Free.....Over the last 24 years and definitely in the last 2.5 years many photos have been replaced, descriptions actually are descriptions, we have added the information on the back of the pin and actually filled out fields for the year of the pin, the origin and the LE size. Not because we want to line our pockets, but because we care that the information is correct....that the picture is clear and not pixelated...in today's time and devices....the picture has to be good. We work every day all day to make this site amazing for all of you. Hopemax - really I thank you for the feedback on the photos. Both my husband and i want the pictures to be right. And I am going to make this a priority. I was looking at my mobile phone today and I was in Trade Assist and the pictures were huge! I immediately messaged the programmer to fix it and it is fixed. We appreciate and want the feedback....we want to make it better. But making assumptions is just a waste of time. Email me at molly@pinpics.com - tell me the issue - and we will do our best to solve it.

 

[GroguFan]

I've purposely not posted in this thread. Sis and I have talked and talked about this, and I did contribute to her posts above. We are totally in agreement. But I have to add something here.
I am SO, SO supremely embarrassed and sad to even admit that I'm a member of this group right now. That this would be such a public, active discussion is a shame. There is no reason for anyone to start getting this personal.

As for picking out TOS from 2002 . . . are you kidding?????!!!!! That is 21 years ago, everybody. Those were written by the original owners of PinPics. We are now living in 2023. The site has been sold multiple times. If you're complaining and harboring this anger and negativity about something from 20 years ago, then there's really no help. You are angry at those original owners and their decision to sell out and stop maintaining the site in their way. The minute that PinPics was sold, the rules changed. The new owner called the shots. That owner has since sold up. The site changes again. So, you're angry that one of those owners sold out.

The database may have been updated and changed a bit, but everything you've always been doing is still there. As for thinking that we're all entitled to having this service our way, for free, forever . . . that's totally not real life. There's a lot involved in keeping this running, and no one is admitting that or even understanding it. Where does some 20-year-old involvement give anyone the right to call shots today?
Personally, if the information was allowed to be taken and used willy-nilly across the internet, I would not be happy at all. I would not contribute. Because, frankly, there are pin sites that I don't want to contribute to due to my own preferences. I want the freedom to add my pictures and info where I want them -- and to withhold them from places that I do not want.
However, I'm working under the TOS of today. If the current owners decide to sell out next year . . . then, I won't have the right to expect that the current TOS will stay. And that owner then controls content on PinPics. That's the deal we all make when taking advantage of someone else footing the bill and time to host a website themselves. If I want complete control of my content forever, then my only choice is to make, control, support and keep a site all my own.

Anyway, this is more than I wanted to add, because this discussion has me so upset.

 

[Disneychildwithin]

I wouldn't take it as a general consensus of the forum though. I for one preferred not to comment because most of what's being said goes way over my head. I think a few people are upset and have articulated that, but I for one am grateful for Pinpics and all the hard work going on behind the scenes. It is my #1 go-to for maintaining my collection and for trading. Just wanted to throw that in there!

 

[GroguFan]

I wouldn't take it as a general consensus of the forum though. I for one preferred not to comment because most of what's being said goes way over my head. I think a few people are upset and have articulated that, but I for one am grateful for Pinpics and all the hard work going on behind the scenes. It is my #1 go-to for maintaining my collection and for trading. Just wanted to throw that in there!

I'm glad to see a positive comment.

 

[hopemax]

I've read all the responses, and boiling it down, it seems that the general consensus here is that any person on the globe should be allowed and encouraged to copy any and all information and pictures from PinPics and start their own database and never worry about being contacted about lifting a database to creating something with someone else's work and resources.

Since it was stated that Pin Trading Database is OK with this, that means that hypothetically - someone could go and copy all the pins in PTDB or P&P and add them to PP and there would be no issue whatsoever? I bet there would be an issue.

Personally, as a very active user and contributor, I would be absolutely against this and appreciate the fact that this is protected from happening. I can choose to contribute to any site or multiples sites as I wish, but I'd like to contribute to the ones that make me happy while I'm doing it. Of course, if I change years from now and go to a different site, would I expect to have my own work transferred? No. And what you are all saying goes for that, too . . . If you want your information on all databases, sit at your computer and add it to all of them. Easy way to make sure it is everywhere!

About the Terms of Service from 2002 - That's 21 years ago! Times have changed and the online world has become unrecognizable from what it was back in the dark ages of 2002. People have changed, online security has changed and the amount of cyber crime has escalated beyond the charts back then. No comparison. Besides, that was multiple owners ago. I'm also getting the feeling here that a lot of the previous owner's problems and faults are being lumped in on the new owners. Any argument using ToS from 2002 is lost already. That was decades ago and many owners ago. The internet was different and the people were different.

A last note on sites that most of you might not be aware of . . . in the last two years, the prices of basic hosting costs has raised 3-5 times what it was in 2020. That's enormous! So a small site that would have cost $500 a year for basic hosting (no images, mind you) now costs $1,500 to $2,500 a year for the same basic hosting plan.

@hopemax The Compare feature was brought to the forefront of the conversation. I was probably more upset than you were when it was no longer there. I'm sure that Molly was super tired of my constant emails and feedback, too. However, I sent in feedback, I gave detailed explanations of what it was like, how it worked, what it looked like, etc. Even arranged to have a Zoom meeting with the programmer to describe it! It was recreated and reinstated. So, maybe I was really annoyed for a few months, but I was even happier when it came back, as it was something I really worked for! The number one tool, for my style of online pint trading. <3

The issue is that, from my understanding, US copyright law treats compilations of data and the underlying data as different entities and thus treated differently. If someone put up a website identical in code, layout and data to PinPics that would be a copyright violation. But facts are not themselves copyrightable. Anyone can independently, build their own database of Images (their own or submitted), with Release Origins, Release Date, Price, Edition Sizes, UPCs, number of posts, text of backstamps, and other details one can collect about a pin, and they can use resources such as other websites to research this type of factual information. There have been cases that have worked their way through the courts and why law websites describe database copyright violations as a hard thing to prove. It's really only examples that are literal copies, including typos and duplicated erroneous information that have been successful. For example this description: Lists, Directories, and Databases Under Copyright Law The other pin sites are clearly different in the way they organize and present the factual data, and are usually very clear about not copying Descriptions or Images from other sites, where it is theoretical easier to prove the necessary creativity.

Also, I found this regarding the use of proprietary numbering systems. The examples I normally see are about Parts Lists, but PinPics numbering system would seem to qualify. The first is in regards to trademark protection, and I don't think PinPics has any trademarks, but if they did. Part Numbers : Trademark, trade secret and Intellectual Property Rights in OEM Part numbers And also this case: Toro Company v. R & R PRODUCTS CO., 600 F. Supp. 400 (D. Minn. 1984) where the Company, Toro, agrees that the other company has a right to publish a table with their number in one column, and Toro's number in another, for cross-referencing purposes. Their objection was the numbering system was identical except for sticking a character in front of it. AFAIK, no pin database says pin 112 on their site is the same as pin 112 on Pinpics, and all the way through with all the numbers. But in any case the court denied Toro's claims of copyright and upheld the other companies use of duplicating the numbers.

Also, also, when I did a bit of research in the past there are similar cases concerning Deep Linking, one website linking to another's pages, and that is also generally seen by the courts as permissible, and there have been cases such as Ticketmaster suing others. It is encouraged by some law sites to gain permission, and don't do it, if a TOS prohibits it. But the reasoning seems a case of etiquette and not legality. Connecting to Other Websites and an example of how it's interpreted by a group who might need to know what is permissible ALA | Hypertext Linking and Copyright Issues.

This is why there is pushback, because other people's interpretations of existing copyright and trademark laws and court rulings do not align with PinPics statements. It may feel wrong to some people, but it doesn't mean something is protected content. It may absolutely lead to increased server costs, via increased traffic and that is one of the issues described as a reason why entities try and fight it. That's why those are the type of decisions one must consider when choosing to operate a website such PinPics. Or be a contributor. And all of this is a factor for users to decide how much effort they want to expend in PinPics' direction. I don't Zoom with my family, I don't have any interest in participating in Zoom chats in order to gain some sort of status of fairness to judge the quality of a product I use. If character and intent of business owners was the determining factor of a business success or failure, there would probably be a lot more businesses that didn't fail. But that's not how the world works. People judge products all the time if they meet their needs.